Looking for family information, sir name Martin

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martinfam
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Great aunt and uncles, Catherine, John, Bernard and Denis, all born about 1880 - 1889. My grandfather, Denis J Martin was married to Annie, they lived at 68 Watts Lane around 1920 - 1970. Looking for any information about his siblings, my great aunt and uncles that I didn’t know I had, putting together family tree and I assuming I have other relatives in the other tree branches. Stuck at trying to find information on them.


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ALAMO2008
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Bernard Martin from Ireland aged 26 married December Quarter 1876 in Liverpool Volume 8b page 474 Catherine (Kate) Lanegan from Liverpool aged 14 if she was 29 on 1891 Census


They had
John born June Quarter 1882 Liverpool District Volume 8b page 32 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan
Catherine born December Quarter 1885 West Derby District Volume 8b page 469 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanigan not Lanegan
Bernard born December Quarter 1886 West Derby District Volume 8b page 471 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanagan not Lanegan
Dennis born September Quarter 1889 West Derby District Volume 8b page 457 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan
Frank born December Quarter 1891 West Derby District Volume 8b page 479 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan
Edward born December Quarter 1895 West Derby District Volume 8b page 492 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan
James born September Quarter 1898 West Derby District Volume 8b page 516 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan
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ALAMO2008
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Denis Martin married in June Quarter 1915 in West Derby District Volume 8b page 1036 Annie Mageer

They had
Bernardina 1916
Hilda 1919
Lilian 1920
Joseph 1921
Bernard 1922
James 1922
Mary 1924
Ann 1924
John 1927
Denis 1927
martinfam
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Wow, thanks for posting the information. I did not know there were even more uncles. My connection is thru my mother, Hilda who was Denis J Martin’s daughter, her siblings were James, Dennis, Joseph and Nancy.

My mother met my father (US soldier) during WW2 while he was stationed there getting ready for invasion, they were married sometime in 1945 / 1946.

Would you know how to find out more about Dennis’s siblings families. I have a few old letters and some pictures, I know there was a cousin Bernard Martin ( I assume he was son of one of the other Martins), probably born around 1920 - 25, he served in WW2 also.

From some of the letters I think I have some other Martin relatives and it would be nice to discover them and possibly contact.

Thanks again for what you posted.
martinfam
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I see all the names you posted, I think some of those might be my mom’s cousins, only Dennis, Joseph, James, Nancy (for some reason sometimes listed as Ann) and Hilda, were Denis J Martin’s children.

From pictures and letters I have found the following:

Denis J Martin (Father Bernard born in Ireland around 1851), married to Annie (I thought Goodwin, you found Mageer)
Children
Hilda, born 1919, married 1945 / 46
James, born about 1922, died 22/6/1943, WW2
Joseph, married Helen about 1946
Dennis, born about 1927, died 1953, crash, R.N. Pilot
Nancy (Ann?), born 1930?, married 1945

Bernard, cousin, born about 1922
martinfam
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I think part of mystery solved, it looks like Denis and Bernard married sisters, Annie and Jane, maybe that would explain all the Mageer births, and the members not siblings to my mother are probably cousins, children of my great uncle.

I must rest now, the family tree task keeps growing…. :lol:
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ALAMO2008
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Hilda Martin married September Quarter 1945 in Bootle District Volume 8b page 661 Antronig Andrew J Verbedian

She said to the USA on 6 May 1946 on the "Washington "

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They had a Son Dennis James Verbedian 10 February 1953 in Michigan
He died in 2017

And You Peter ?
Last edited by ALAMO2008 on Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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ALAMO2008
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Bernard W Martin married December Quarter 1914 in West Derby District Volume 8b page 869 Jane Mageer

Denis Martin married June Quarter 1915 in West Ddrby District Volume 8b page 1036 Annie Mageer
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ALAMO2008
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Children of Martin / Mageer Marriages above =

Bernardina Martin in June Quarter 1916 West Derby District Volume 8b page 485 Mother's Maiden Name = Mageer

Hilda Martin in September Quarter 1919 West Derby District Volume 8b page 594 Mother's Maiden Name show = Mageer

Lilian A Martin in March Quarter 1920 West Derby District Volume 8b page 743 Mother's Maiden Name = Mageer

Joseph Martin in March Quarter 1921 West Derby District Volume 8b page 688 Mother's Maiden Name = Mageer

Bernard W Martin in March Quarter 1922 West Derby District Volume 8b page 550 Mother's Maiden Name = Mageer

James Martin in September Quarter West Derby District Volume 8b page 673 Mother's Maiden Name = Mageer

Mary Martin in June Quarter 1924 West Derby District Volume 8b page 753 Mother's Maiden Name = Mageer

Ann Martin in December Quarter 1924 West Derby District Volume 8b page 761 Mother's Maiden Name = Mageer

John Martin in September Quarter 1927 West Derby District Volume 8b page 718 Mother's Maiden Name = Mageer

Denis Martin in December Quarter 1927 West Derby District Volume 8b page 799 Mother's Maiden Name = Mageer


Nancy D Martin in September Quarter 1930 Liverpool District Volume 8b page 439 Mother's Maiden Name = Goodwin
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ALAMO2008
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No James Martiin Death listed 1943 for 21 year old Was it War related ? Nothing on Commonwealth War Graves Commission site.

No Denis Martin Death listed 1953 only a Dennis Martin aged 30 in Leicester in September Quarter 1954

No Joseph Martin marrying a Helen in 1946

Only Joseph Martin marriage to Eliza Farrell in March Quarter 1946 in Liverpool South District Volume 8b page 324

and Joseph Martin marriage to Emily Blackham in March Quarter 1946 in Liverpool North District Volume 8b page 846

There is a Joseph Martin marriage in June Quarter 1947 in Crosby District Volume 10c page 233 to a Joyce E Truby ( E could stand for Ellen?)

Bernard W Martin marriage to Muriel A R Fair in June Quarter 1945 in Liverpool District Volume 8b page 188

a Nancy D Martin married in September Quarter 1945 in Hove District Volume 2b page 1067 a M R Klancewicz
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ALAMO2008
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Watts Lane
Small World
I had a Girl friend in 1974 in Watts Lane
Your Mum and Family are entry 40 on this 1939 Register
My Grandparents are same page at entry 49 at 13 Park Lane my Dad is blacked out.
He lived with his Widowed Mother when he married in 1948
I was conceived there 1949 and lived there till 1951



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They never listed Denis's Wife Annie as number 2 but listed out of Order his Daughter Ann/Annie
So when Ann married in 1945 they wrongly noted up her Mother Annie then crossed it out and back to Martin

Ann Martin married 30 May 1945 McKinstry

Freebmd Marriage Index shows Ann Martin married June Quarter 1945 Bootle Volume 8b page 617
Thomas C McKinstry

They had

Sandra A McKinstry in December Quarter 1946 in Bootle District Volume 10b page 931 Mother's Maiden Name = Martin

Roberta H McKinstry in June Quarter 1951 in Crosbt District Volume 10c page 101 Mother's Maiden Name = Martin
martinfam
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Your research is outstanding, I recognize some of the names from old letters I found. You are correct about me.

I had been working mostly on my 2 uncles that were in lost in military incidents, it took quite a few searches.

James Patrick Martin, WW2, Belgium, 1943


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Dennis Martin, accident in 1953


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martinfam
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Yes small world isn’t it. Interesting about the name Annie, I was young but I knew about my aunt Nancy (Hilda’s sister), she married T Mckinstry and had 2 daughters Sandra and Roberta, I have seen correct dates about marriage and Sandra birth, I never knew Roberta was born in England, thought born after they moved to New York in mid 1950’s, but I think they have the first name wrong for my aunt, it is listed as Ann, I knew her as Nancy, or perhaps somehow a middle and first name were being misplaced.

I am really enjoying these new discoveries and really appreciate what you have found, I will be able align a few more names in letters and photos to fill out the tree more.

I think my mom’s (Hilda) Bernard was Bernard’s (married to Jane) son, I have some pictures of him in uniform, 1940 - 45, and a wedding picture of him, no information yet on who he married or if something happened to him in WW2.
martinfam
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Maybe Joseph and Helen marriage,
March qtr 1946

Harris Helen M. Martin Aldershot 2c 553

From a letter, Helen said she had 7 sisters and 4 brothers, 2 sisters names Edna and Doris, maybe Atkinson for Helen’s mother’s maiden name
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ALAMO2008
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martinfam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:48 pm Maybe Joseph and Helen marriage,
March qtr 1946

Harris Helen M. Martin Aldershot 2c 553

From a letter, Helen said she had 7 sisters and 4 brothers, 2 sisters names Edna and Doris, maybe Atkinson for Helen’s mother’s maiden name

This Marriage is a Helen M Harris marrying in Alderhot in March 1946 a Joseph D Martin

Joseph D Martin was born June Quarter 1924 West Derby Vol 8b page 677 Mother's Maiden Name = Smith

Only Martin/Smith marriages I can see are

Cecil J Martin in March Quarter 1917 in West Derby marrying Margaret Smith

James G Martin in December Quarter 1918 in West Derby marrying Annie Smith
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ALAMO2008
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martinfam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:21 am Your research is outstanding, I recognize some of the names from old letters I found. You are correct about me.

I had been working mostly on my 2 uncles that were in lost in military incidents, it took quite a few searches.

James Patrick Martin, WW2, Belgium, 1943


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Dennis Martin, accident in 1953


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Can't understand why I couldn't find James on CWGC site yesterday though your upload implies Deceased is Denis Martin ?

Now understand why no trace of 1953 Death for Denis/Dennis Martin on GRO site for England and Wales
He is probably listed on their site Deaths at Sea outside U K
Last edited by ALAMO2008 on Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
martinfam
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Helen M Harris, mother Atkinson sibling names seem to have matches from names in letters,

Joe and Helen February 1946


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martinfam
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Another letter mentions May Roberts, mom’s cousin, I think might be May Martin married to Roberts, daughter of John George Martin spouse maiden name Evans, dates of marriages and births seem to align.
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ALAMO2008
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There is a Helem M Harris born June Quarter 1928 in South Shields Volume 10a page 1370 Mother's Maiden Name = Atkinson
Which means she was 18 when she married Joseph D
martinfam
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ALAMO2008 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:25 pm
martinfam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:21 am Your research is outstanding, I recognize some of the names from old letters I found. You are correct about me.

I had been working mostly on my 2 uncles that were in lost in military incidents, it took quite a few searches.

James Patrick Martin, WW2, Belgium, 1943


Image

Dennis Martin, accident in 1953


Image

Can't understand why I couldn't find James on CWGC site yesterday though your upload implies Deceased is Denis Martin ?

Now understand why no trace of 1953 Death for Denis/Dennis Martin on GRO site for England and Wales
He is probably listed on their site Deaths at Sea outside U K
I found Dennis after paying for access to Liverpool echo article, his accident was during a flight demonstration during apparently famous visit by Marshal Tito in 1953, 2 separate aircraft crashes happened in the same week, one involving carrier Eagle, Thames / Gibraltar area, other on land, Dennis was in the accident from the carrier.

There was a picture of the gravesite cross for James that had a date, so I researched from that, his death is an official RAF killed in action record in 1943.

Dennis was Royal Navy Pilot, James was, I think, tail gunner on bomber, RAF sergeant.
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ALAMO2008
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Regarding Ann Martin born 1924 sister to your Mum Hilda
Ann was Born and Registered and Married as just Ann no Middle name same on 1939 Register
But with two Females named Ann in the same household it is quite usual to adoptor invent a name
in this case Nancy.

I had a Relative named Joe couldn't find his Birth records for that year only an Ernest

Turns out as a Kid he hated the name Ernest and demanded to be called Joe till his dying day.
martinfam
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ALAMO2008 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:47 pm Regarding Ann Martin born 1924 sister to your Mum Hilda
Ann was Born and Registered and Married as just Ann no Middle name same on 1939 Register
But with two Females named Ann in the same household it is quite usual to adoptor invent a name
in this case Nancy.

I had a Relative named Joe couldn't find his Birth records for that year only an Ernest

Turns out as a Kid he hated the name Ernest and demanded to be called Joe till his dying day.
Very interesting and helps solve no Nancy being listed. Would her official documents for moving to USA use Ann or Nancy for first name?
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BOBHAMO
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P
Last edited by BOBHAMO on Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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martinfam
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BOBHAMO wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:04 pm Hi Peter
great research Alan :D :D
just a couple of photos of 809 squadren on the eagle 1953
Image
Image
did he fly the Meteor jet on this first photo
Strange how a post can bring back memories
my dad worked at Woodvale and lived in Marmion ave
bobhamo
Dennis flew Sea Hornet , Eagle 809 squadron


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I originally thought this was what happened to Dennis, but other sources list different names, it was confusing at first because of all the 1953 and Tito references, both incidents happened that same week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZrlaPugKmg
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ALAMO2008
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martinfam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:22 pm
BOBHAMO wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:04 pm Hi Peter
great research Alan :D :D
just a couple of photos of 809 squadren on the eagle 1953
Image
Image
did he fly the Meteor jet on this first photo
Strange how a post can bring back memories
my dad worked at Woodvale and lived in Marmion ave
bobhamo
Dennis flew Sea Hornet , Eagle 809 squadron


Image

Image

I originally thought this was what happened to Dennis, but other sources list different names, it was confusing at first because of all the 1953 and Tito references, both incidents happened that same week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZrlaPugKmg

If he was killed in the Airshow for Tito in the UK his Death would be recorded on the GRO under England and Wales
He was killed off Gibraltar outside the UK and listed and registered as a Death abroad.
martinfam
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:09 pm

ALAMO2008 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:27 pm
martinfam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:22 pm
BOBHAMO wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:04 pm Hi Peter
great research Alan :D :D
just a couple of photos of 809 squadren on the eagle 1953
Image
Image
did he fly the Meteor jet on this first photo
Strange how a post can bring back memories
my dad worked at Woodvale and lived in Marmion ave
bobhamo
Dennis flew Sea Hornet , Eagle 809 squadron


Image

Image

I originally thought this was what happened to Dennis, but other sources list different names, it was confusing at first because of all the 1953 and Tito references, both incidents happened that same week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZrlaPugKmg

If he was killed in the Airshow for Tito in the UK his Death would be recorded on the GRO under England and Wales
He was killed off Gibraltar outside the UK and listed and registered as a Death abroad.
Thanks for explaining how information was recorded, this is a paragraph within the story about the 2 meteor collision



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ALAMO2008
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Have found two Ancestry Trees with your Relatives in

Carol McGlynn nee Martin in Liverpool daughter of James Joseph ( Sonny) Martin
born 1929 to Frank ( Francis) Martin and Alice Rice

Someone in Rutherford New Jersey has a Tulp Tree with your Granddad Denis Martin in his Tree and Martins further back but doesn't know who your Granddad married.
martinfam
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ALAMO2008 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:43 am Have found two Ancestry Trees with your Relatives in

Carol McGlynn nee Martin in Liverpool daughter of James Joseph ( Sonny) Martin
born 1929 to Frank ( Francis) Martin and Alice Rice

Someone in Rutherford New Jersey has a Tulp Tree with your Granddad Denis Martin in his Tree and Martins further back but doesn't know who your Granddad married.
More interesting paths to follow. What is a Tulp Tree, is that different from Ancestry trees?
Last edited by martinfam on Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
martinfam
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I found this 1911 census document, I don’t understand some of the information, does this mean they did have 8 children, 2 were dead and 2 were not living with them in 1911?


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Glenys
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TULP tree, is the name given by the person who is researching that family; on Ancestry.
Lived Linacre Lane, Trinity Road & Knowsley Road.
martinfam
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Glenys wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:39 pm TULP tree, is the name given by the person who is researching that family; on Ancestry.
Thanks for explaining, I am a beginner at this, only started research when my wife asked if I knew my grandparents first names, that was a week ago tomorrow, I’m deep in it now though.
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ALAMO2008
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martinfam wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:48 pm
Glenys wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:39 pm TULP tree, is the name given by the person who is researching that family; on Ancestry.
Thanks for explaining, I am a beginner at this, only started research when my wife asked if I knew my grandparents first names, that was a week ago tomorrow, I’m deep in it now though.

Sorry my Bad English should have said Tulp Family Tree his Ancestry username is shown as tjtulp Ancestry Member since 7 June 2005
He has 34,000 people in his Ancestry
I've got 4,000 since 2007

Who is Ancestry Username Wes Varbedian ? Member since 3 APRIL 2017
Last edited by ALAMO2008 on Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ALAMO2008
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martinfam wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:54 pm I found this 1911 census document, I don’t understand some of the information, does this mean they did have 8 children, 2 were dead and 2 were not living with them in 1911?


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Yes 1911 Census Bernard declared he had 8 Children of his Marriage with Catherine

2 Died =
William Martin born 3 October 1878 as William Martan December Quarter 1878 Liverpool Volume 8b page 38 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lannigan
He was Baptised 13 October 1878
Can't find his Death yet but not be under Martin surname on records

Edward Martin born December Quarter 1895 West Derby Vol 8b page 492 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan
died December Quarter 1895 West Derby Vol 8b page 408 aged 0

John Martin aged 29 born 29 March 1882 Registered June Quarter 1882 Liverpool Vol 8b page 32 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lannegan
Obviously married and left Parents home.

Frank Martin aged 20 was not at Home with Parents on Census Night hence not recorded.
With a Census you have to remember it is not a Record who lived at that address but rather who slept there that night.
Most Censuses took place around Easter and people often went to visit and stay with Cousins or Grandparents
Frank (Francis) married Alice Rice the following year but is not on her 1911 census as a Visitor
Last edited by ALAMO2008 on Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
martinfam
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ALAMO2008 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:53 pm
martinfam wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:48 pm
Glenys wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:39 pm TULP tree, is the name given by the person who is researching that family; on Ancestry.
Thanks for explaining, I am a beginner at this, only started research when my wife asked if I knew my grandparents first names, that was a week ago tomorrow, I’m deep in it now though.

Sorry my Bad English should have said Tulp Family Tree his Ancestry username is shown as tjtulp Ancestry Member since 7 June 2005
He has 34,000 people in his Ancestry which I find hard to believe,.

Who is Ancestry Username Wes Varbedian ? Member since 3 APRIL 2017
Maybe someone along my father’s tree, that’s a whole other tree to populate, I have a little more starting information from the time they all arrive in USA around 1920 - 22
martinfam
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ALAMO2008 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:10 pm
martinfam wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:54 pm I found this 1911 census document, I don’t understand some of the information, does this mean they did have 8 children, 2 were dead and 2 were not living with them in 1911?


Image
Yes 1911 Census Bernard declared he had 8 Children of his Marriage with Catherine

2 Died =
William Martin born 3 October 1878 as William Martan December Quarter 1878 Liverpool Volume 8b page 38 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lannigan
He was Baptised 13 October 1878
Can't find his Death yet but not be under Martin surname on records

Edward Martin born December Quarter 1895 West Derby Vol 8b page 492 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan
died December Quarter 1895 West Derby Vol 8b page 408 aged 0

John Martin aged 29 born 29 March 1882 Registered June Quarter 1882 Liverpool Vol 8b page 32 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lannegan
Obviously married and left Parents home.

Frank Martin aged 20 was not at Home with Parenrs on Census Night hence not recorded.
With a Census you have to remember it is not a Record who lived at that address but rather who slept there that night.
Most Censuses took place around Easter and people often went to visit and stay with Cousins or Grandparents
Frank (Francis) married Alice Rice the following year but is not on her 1911 census as a Visitor
I did see some entries with some of the names as Morton and Dervis instead of Dennis and the other names and dates matched up with Bernard tree members.

Also, your information on Carol Mcglynn helped add more to the tree under Francis, I’m working to make a summary outline of what you have helped me uncover so far to make it a little easier to view
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