My Mum's Grandmother Registered the Birth on 13 August 1894 (September Quarter 1894)
for her Son Daniel McKay
My Questions is- When was Daniel Born please ?
Your Advice and Opinion please.
Births in Bootle after 1873
- ALAMO2008
- Posts: 1012
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Spot on Bobhamo !!
John Henry McKay and Wife Margaret McKay nee Simm
They had Margaret Ann my Grandmother on 21 Feb 1892 at 46 Haddock Street off Derby Rd
They then moved to 29 Haddock St
Then 27 Stour St 1894
Then 56 Syren St 1895
Then 9 Orlando St 1897
Grandma Margaret Married Albert Ambrose Robinson at St Matthew's on 4 Sep 1910 lived at 3 Garfield St off Strand Road
Moved to 11 Stewart Grove / Miranda Rd / Marsh Street
She had my Mum Lilian May Robinson in 1925 at Malcolm Grove off Miranda Rd
John Henry Died at Bootle Hospital 24 Oct 1897 aged 32
John Henry McKay and Wife Margaret McKay nee Simm
They had Margaret Ann my Grandmother on 21 Feb 1892 at 46 Haddock Street off Derby Rd
They then moved to 29 Haddock St
Then 27 Stour St 1894
Then 56 Syren St 1895
Then 9 Orlando St 1897
Grandma Margaret Married Albert Ambrose Robinson at St Matthew's on 4 Sep 1910 lived at 3 Garfield St off Strand Road
Moved to 11 Stewart Grove / Miranda Rd / Marsh Street
She had my Mum Lilian May Robinson in 1925 at Malcolm Grove off Miranda Rd
John Henry Died at Bootle Hospital 24 Oct 1897 aged 32
- ALAMO2008
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Albert Ambrose Robinson Mum's her Other GrandFather Hiistory is :-
Albert James Ambrose Robinson born Battersea 1867
Posted to Seaforth Barracks 1886 with King's Own 3rd Hussars
Marries Elizabeth Clark born Edinburgh 1868 of 7 Guion Rd Litherland opposite Litherland Library
They married at Bootle Wesleyan 4 May 1887
Son James Born 28 Feb 1888 at 7 Guion Rd
Hussars are Posted to Cork Barracks 1889
11 January 1890 in Cork he Marries AGAIN Nora Fitzpatrick
March 1890 Bigamy discovered by the Army after checking their Records as you need Serving Soldier Permission to Marry Ian Records after the Even showed up he had Already been given in 1887
Mother in law Travels from Guion Rd to Court Martial Trail to give Evidence
He is Found "Guilty" and Dishonourably Discharged 31 May 1890 and Lost 5 years Pension Right and Pay owed also given 12 months Hard Labour in Cork Spike Island Prison
1891 Returns on Release from Prison
Returns to Real Wife Elizabeth at 7 Guion Rd and gets her Pregnant
and 9 months later 12 February 1892 at 7 Guion Rd his 2nd Son Named after him Albert Ambrose
i.e. my Mum's Dad
and she Never Ever knew any of this.
Elizabeth died of TB 1918 at Walton Hospital 107 Rice Lane
He Her Husband died a week later same place of Melancholy which is basically is Emotionally a Broken Heart
Albert James Ambrose Robinson born Battersea 1867
Posted to Seaforth Barracks 1886 with King's Own 3rd Hussars
Marries Elizabeth Clark born Edinburgh 1868 of 7 Guion Rd Litherland opposite Litherland Library
They married at Bootle Wesleyan 4 May 1887
Son James Born 28 Feb 1888 at 7 Guion Rd
Hussars are Posted to Cork Barracks 1889
11 January 1890 in Cork he Marries AGAIN Nora Fitzpatrick
March 1890 Bigamy discovered by the Army after checking their Records as you need Serving Soldier Permission to Marry Ian Records after the Even showed up he had Already been given in 1887
Mother in law Travels from Guion Rd to Court Martial Trail to give Evidence
He is Found "Guilty" and Dishonourably Discharged 31 May 1890 and Lost 5 years Pension Right and Pay owed also given 12 months Hard Labour in Cork Spike Island Prison
1891 Returns on Release from Prison
Returns to Real Wife Elizabeth at 7 Guion Rd and gets her Pregnant
and 9 months later 12 February 1892 at 7 Guion Rd his 2nd Son Named after him Albert Ambrose
i.e. my Mum's Dad
and she Never Ever knew any of this.
Elizabeth died of TB 1918 at Walton Hospital 107 Rice Lane
He Her Husband died a week later same place of Melancholy which is basically is Emotionally a Broken Heart
- ALAMO2008
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:31 pm
- Location: Aberystwyth
Bobhamo
Regarding why your Answer /Reply to my Post here Asking for Opinions to my Question "What Date was Daniel Born?"
For a Clue to the Correct Answer
Refer to my 4th Post on Sunday 3 July at 4:39 to Dwayne's
Although it proved 24 May 1873 Date he provided was Incorrect
My same Answer also applied to Birth Date 24 May 1875 without the Evidence and a Copy of the Birth Certificate
Regarding why your Answer /Reply to my Post here Asking for Opinions to my Question "What Date was Daniel Born?"
For a Clue to the Correct Answer
Refer to my 4th Post on Sunday 3 July at 4:39 to Dwayne's
Although it proved 24 May 1873 Date he provided was Incorrect
My same Answer also applied to Birth Date 24 May 1875 without the Evidence and a Copy of the Birth Certificate
- ALAMO2008
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- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:31 pm
- Location: Aberystwyth
Sorry Bobhamo
Your Reply to my Question is -- "Incorrect"
Here's Why:-
My Question was - When was Daniel Born please ?
I Did Not ask What Date did the Birth Certificate "SAID"
as Recorded by the Registrar by what the Mother "SAID"
My Question in a Separate Topic was an Example for Dwayne and Others to see the Following
It was Never a Legal Obligation to Register a Birth
Until 1873
A Law was Brought In and made LAW to Register the Birth of the Child with the Registrar at the Registry Office
There were Two Registry Offices - Liverpool
and West Derby
West Derby Office was at Brougham Terrace on West Derby Rd that covered Bootle, Kirkdale Walton, Litherland and Waterloo
The Father of the Child was probably away at Sea or couldn't take a Day Off work
and lose a day's pay to Register the Birth
So it became the Responsibility to the Wife to Travel with the Baby and other Kids under 10
to Walk from Bootle to Brougham Terrace in West Derby Rd
No Taxi, No Tram Fare or Bus Fares affordable out of the weekly Family Food Allowance given by her Husband,
as No Benefits, or Tax Credits or Family Allowance
And After perhaps a BAD Birth with No Doctor and the Birth Not in a Hospital but at Home
After 1873 - She had to Register Now,
the Birth, within 6 Weeks or would be FINED for LATE Registration
Being Born before 30 June it had to be done before when that Registration Quarter Closed
However, Provided the Registration was Made within the 6 weeks of the Law The Mother would Not be Fined
if the Registration Run over 30th June Deadline into the Next Quarter of September Quarter
Provided the Registration was made No More than 6 Weeks from Birth Day
She would NOT be FINED
Daniel Registration was 13 August 1894 so 6 weeks Deadline for any Registration for Birth Date was up Last Week in June up to 30th June
If it was Before and She told the Truth with a Date Before and Say 20th May 1894
She would be FINED
I think She Told the True Date of Daniel' s Date of Birth 20 May 1894
and the Registrar was Kind and Said to Her
I can't Record That
and He explained Why and She probably Said
What Date can I Say and Not get FINED
and they agreed on 24 June 1894 which was Just OK within 6 Weeks
See Baptism Log Number 637 at Same Church as Ellen Foster who claim Ellen was Born 24 May 1875
but it is OK to Register After 30 June Quarter and in the Next Quarter September
If they apply for that September Quarter Actual Birth Certificate for Ellen Booth
I Guarantee it will Not show 24 May 1875 Birth
With Registration in September Quarter for the Same Reason Explained above.
I would be Extremely Surprised show it 24 May.
The Only other Evidence that Dwayne has
is the Date shown on the 1939 Register showing 24 May 1875
But if you Read that closely there are another Date Recorded above the Entry - in Pencil
And as I have Experienced and been Advissd by the Library Old Guys and I did advise Dwayne
NEVER Believe the Birth Dates on the 1939 Register
Remember it was Not Completed by the Householder
But by a Visiting Enumerator from What He was Told by the Person at Home "SAID"
Because the Head of the House was probably Out at Work and the Kids away at School or Evacuated
That is probably why so many Searches on Births Fail
If the Children where Billetted in Wales as Evacuated
the 1939 Register was Completed by the Enumerator asking the Kids all under 12
For them to Remember their Exact Birth Date
Must Male Adults over 18 had been Called Up and Not ar Home but away On Training Camp
Remember the 1939 Register was Not a Census
It was set up as a Head Count
And Solely intended to Provide the Issue of an I.D. Card
And the Records continued to be Updated after the War and updated until the 1990s
Females who Married after 1939 to 1990s Had their 1939 entry amended in Green Ink with the Marriage Name
and Date of Marriage
Anyone still ALIVE in the 1990s when in Closed
it meant they were born about 1920 and still Alive so their Record is "REDACTED" and Blackened Out.
I don't doubt Ellen believed her Birth Date was 24th May 1875
But what I was Trained by those Library Guys was
- that the Only Evidence
You Can Believe-
is the Baptism Log Record
And what the Priest Recorded as the Only Truth anywhere.
Remember the Majority of Families attended the Local Church every Sunday without Fail.
The Priest knew when the Baby had been Born and they put pressure to get the Family to get the Baby - Baptised
as soon as possible in their Church.
The Family had a Strong Belief, that by having the Baby Baptised as soon as possible,
because having GOD on their side,
it Increased the Odds of the Baby's Survival Rate.
Which is why the Baptism was Always the Priority
and Not the Birth Registration!
I have seen some Baptisms done Years later and several of the Children all Baptised at the Same Time
like a Buy One Get One Free
Catholic Baptisms were very Accurate but all in Latin but with the Same Urgency
All R Cs had upon their Marriage had their Baptism Record wherever Baptised
the Marriaging Priest HAD to have the Baptism Log Record with the Marriage Details Recorded
Some Families have the Baby Baptised in Both CATHOLIC Church and then by CHURCH OF ENGLAND
I always assumed the Parents were from Both of Different Religions
The Old Guys told me that was Not the Reason but too Long for me to Explain here.
I like to think The Old Guys Knowledge - didn't Die with them.
Part of it was Transferred and Passed On to those that Listened them
Which meant their Time Researching, Wasn't Wasted Time
I Try to Pass On to Others to also Pass On and their Knowledge and Experience
I Hope this Helps.
Al
Your Reply to my Question is -- "Incorrect"
Here's Why:-
My Question was - When was Daniel Born please ?
I Did Not ask What Date did the Birth Certificate "SAID"
as Recorded by the Registrar by what the Mother "SAID"
My Question in a Separate Topic was an Example for Dwayne and Others to see the Following
It was Never a Legal Obligation to Register a Birth
Until 1873
A Law was Brought In and made LAW to Register the Birth of the Child with the Registrar at the Registry Office
There were Two Registry Offices - Liverpool
and West Derby
West Derby Office was at Brougham Terrace on West Derby Rd that covered Bootle, Kirkdale Walton, Litherland and Waterloo
The Father of the Child was probably away at Sea or couldn't take a Day Off work
and lose a day's pay to Register the Birth
So it became the Responsibility to the Wife to Travel with the Baby and other Kids under 10
to Walk from Bootle to Brougham Terrace in West Derby Rd
No Taxi, No Tram Fare or Bus Fares affordable out of the weekly Family Food Allowance given by her Husband,
as No Benefits, or Tax Credits or Family Allowance
And After perhaps a BAD Birth with No Doctor and the Birth Not in a Hospital but at Home
After 1873 - She had to Register Now,
the Birth, within 6 Weeks or would be FINED for LATE Registration
Being Born before 30 June it had to be done before when that Registration Quarter Closed
However, Provided the Registration was Made within the 6 weeks of the Law The Mother would Not be Fined
if the Registration Run over 30th June Deadline into the Next Quarter of September Quarter
Provided the Registration was made No More than 6 Weeks from Birth Day
She would NOT be FINED
Daniel Registration was 13 August 1894 so 6 weeks Deadline for any Registration for Birth Date was up Last Week in June up to 30th June
If it was Before and She told the Truth with a Date Before and Say 20th May 1894
She would be FINED
I think She Told the True Date of Daniel' s Date of Birth 20 May 1894
and the Registrar was Kind and Said to Her
I can't Record That
and He explained Why and She probably Said
What Date can I Say and Not get FINED
and they agreed on 24 June 1894 which was Just OK within 6 Weeks
See Baptism Log Number 637 at Same Church as Ellen Foster who claim Ellen was Born 24 May 1875
but it is OK to Register After 30 June Quarter and in the Next Quarter September
If they apply for that September Quarter Actual Birth Certificate for Ellen Booth
I Guarantee it will Not show 24 May 1875 Birth
With Registration in September Quarter for the Same Reason Explained above.
I would be Extremely Surprised show it 24 May.
The Only other Evidence that Dwayne has
is the Date shown on the 1939 Register showing 24 May 1875
But if you Read that closely there are another Date Recorded above the Entry - in Pencil
And as I have Experienced and been Advissd by the Library Old Guys and I did advise Dwayne
NEVER Believe the Birth Dates on the 1939 Register
Remember it was Not Completed by the Householder
But by a Visiting Enumerator from What He was Told by the Person at Home "SAID"
Because the Head of the House was probably Out at Work and the Kids away at School or Evacuated
That is probably why so many Searches on Births Fail
If the Children where Billetted in Wales as Evacuated
the 1939 Register was Completed by the Enumerator asking the Kids all under 12
For them to Remember their Exact Birth Date
Must Male Adults over 18 had been Called Up and Not ar Home but away On Training Camp
Remember the 1939 Register was Not a Census
It was set up as a Head Count
And Solely intended to Provide the Issue of an I.D. Card
And the Records continued to be Updated after the War and updated until the 1990s
Females who Married after 1939 to 1990s Had their 1939 entry amended in Green Ink with the Marriage Name
and Date of Marriage
Anyone still ALIVE in the 1990s when in Closed
it meant they were born about 1920 and still Alive so their Record is "REDACTED" and Blackened Out.
I don't doubt Ellen believed her Birth Date was 24th May 1875
But what I was Trained by those Library Guys was
- that the Only Evidence
You Can Believe-
is the Baptism Log Record
And what the Priest Recorded as the Only Truth anywhere.
Remember the Majority of Families attended the Local Church every Sunday without Fail.
The Priest knew when the Baby had been Born and they put pressure to get the Family to get the Baby - Baptised
as soon as possible in their Church.
The Family had a Strong Belief, that by having the Baby Baptised as soon as possible,
because having GOD on their side,
it Increased the Odds of the Baby's Survival Rate.
Which is why the Baptism was Always the Priority
and Not the Birth Registration!
I have seen some Baptisms done Years later and several of the Children all Baptised at the Same Time
like a Buy One Get One Free
Catholic Baptisms were very Accurate but all in Latin but with the Same Urgency
All R Cs had upon their Marriage had their Baptism Record wherever Baptised
the Marriaging Priest HAD to have the Baptism Log Record with the Marriage Details Recorded
Some Families have the Baby Baptised in Both CATHOLIC Church and then by CHURCH OF ENGLAND
I always assumed the Parents were from Both of Different Religions
The Old Guys told me that was Not the Reason but too Long for me to Explain here.
I like to think The Old Guys Knowledge - didn't Die with them.
Part of it was Transferred and Passed On to those that Listened them
Which meant their Time Researching, Wasn't Wasted Time
I Try to Pass On to Others to also Pass On and their Knowledge and Experience
I Hope this Helps.
Al
-
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- Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:34 pm
- Location: Bootle
Hi Alan,
I had a closer look at the birth cert for Robert McKay and noticed that under Father's name John McKay deceased. I have never seen that before on a birth cert.
I was recently searching family history for a friend of mine and her great aunt was born out of wedlock, there was no father's name on the birth cert, or on the marriage cert, I found the family in 1921 census and it stated on there near the name of my friend's great aunt (father dead). So we will never know who the father was, all my friend was told was the great aunt was born just before WW1 and the father was KIA.
Jan
I had a closer look at the birth cert for Robert McKay and noticed that under Father's name John McKay deceased. I have never seen that before on a birth cert.
I was recently searching family history for a friend of mine and her great aunt was born out of wedlock, there was no father's name on the birth cert, or on the marriage cert, I found the family in 1921 census and it stated on there near the name of my friend's great aunt (father dead). So we will never know who the father was, all my friend was told was the great aunt was born just before WW1 and the father was KIA.
Jan
Old genealogists never die......they just lose their census.
- ALAMO2008
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:31 pm
- Location: Aberystwyth
"So We Will Never Know who the Father Was" - INCORRECTJan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:17 pm Hi Alan,
I had a closer look at the birth cert for Robert McKay and noticed that under Father's name John McKay deceased. I have never seen that before on a birth cert.
I was recently searching family history for a friend of mine and her great aunt was born out of wedlock, there was no father's name on the birth cert, or on the marriage cert, I found the family in 1921 census and it stated on there near the name of my friend's great aunt (father dead). So we will never know who the father was, all my friend was told was the great aunt was born just before WW1 and the father was KIA.
Jan
Reason :- My Great Granddad Henry Chapman from Dublin Marriage in Liverpool 1857 in Green Lane Tuebrook where I went on leaving School went for my First Job interview in Green Lane Tuebrook in 1967 and Got it.
Henry Chapman Declared on his Marriage Certificate that his Father was a Corkcutter named Anthony
A Corkcutter was a Highly Skilled Profession after Years of Apprenticeship and Charged for making Corks for Bottles as a Journeyman Rate and was Not Paid Daily or Weekly
Looking at the Gore's Street for other Chapmans on Merseyside named
I found an Anthony Chapman a Corkcutter
There was until a Cork Factory until recently in Springwell behind Liverpool Central Fire Station
I theorized Anthony was Older Brother of My Great Grandfather Henry
and assumed that Anthony came to Liverpool from Dublin First and then younger Brother Henry Followed over to Liverpool
Researching that Anthony I found he was born in Dublin he was 3 years older than My Henry
And when he Married he declared his Father was a Corkcutter named also Anthony
So I entered it my Tree they were Both Brothers to Father Anthony but had no real proof just my Theory
I told my Cousin David my Theory
David who was a better Researcher than me and he won't have it as I had no evidence.
Years later my Uncle George Chapman employed a Professional Genealogy Company to research the Chapmans
They came to the same conclusion that there research found Anthony and Henry were Brothers of Father Anthony the Dublin Corkcutter but their Report Stated their Theory had No Evidence to prove it.
They did not know about me or my Theory either for them to arrive at the same Theory
Anthony Liverpool he moved to Manchester to a Cork Factory there.
Then became a Mormon and Emigrated to Salt Lake City Utah USA
He had a Huge Family of Chapmans born there.
I resisted testing the DNA test for years I couldn't see the Point in this New Fad
Eventually I did Spit in the Tube Kit and finally Sent it Off
I now have 300 Cousins I never knew I had.
Cousin Top of the list is 1st Cousin David of Course
But my Siblings and Parents have Never Taken the DNA Test
THEN - I get a DNA Match with the LIVE Cousins Now in Salt Lake City Chapmans - Descendants of Anthony Chapman Corkcutter
Which Showed my Theory that we All had the Same Great Great Grandfather Anthony in Dublin who Never Took the Test but his Ancestors had.
I was in Liverpool Central Library Archive Dept and my Friend Researching there, Chris runs a Research Ancestors Company and is there everyday when not Living on his Vineyard in Italy
One day he said the Case he had - was 4 blokes who were Adopted never knew each other and never knew their Mothers or Fathers
Each keen to know their Past
Each set up an Ancestry Account but had no Parents Names os Siblings to enter
But each sent for a DNA test.
Ancestry DNA each found they were Half Brothers but All had the Same Father
They employed Chris to find there Dad in Liverpool
When I told the Story to my Wife
My Wife Grew Up next to their Father next Door and knew his History before and after Prison
I now Advise Anyone Not knowing the Father's Name on the Birth Certificate
Get a Family Member take the DNA Test and put it on Ancestry and their Ancestry Descendants will Spill the Beans and Point the Finger at the Guilty Unknown Father.
Advise your Friend a s a p
- ALAMO2008
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:31 pm
- Location: Aberystwyth
Part Two DNA advice:-
Just met via Ancestry a Young Distant New Cousin Lauren she is keen to learn and me to pass on before I pop my cloggs.
She mentioned her Father's Grandmother never knew who her Father's was. And also would never know.
I asked Lauren to obtain via her Ancestry Account a DNA Kit but in Her Own Name and Account (Lauren)
Get her Grandmother to Spit in the Tube and it would go off to Ancestry as Lauren herself.
Her Grandmother's Mother was a Domestic Servant but had to leave when she had the baby Daughter
Father Unknown
But Women then did Not go to Nightclubs and Pubs to meet other Men
She would have got Pregnant by someone she knew living very local
Finding her on a Census Living In as a Domestic Servant before her Conception
My Theory the Most Likely Father of the Baby was the Same Age of the Son of her Landlord
The Landlord would have had Great Expectations for his Son
and Not want him to Marry a Domestic Servant with a Baby
So they went their separate ways.
That Son would have had a Wife and Children and Descendants to the present day
who No doubt now, has opened an Ancestry Account and done the DNA Test
Even after Lauren's Grandmother has Died
Lauren will get Ancestry DNA matches in her Name for Years to come
It will Point the Finger to who that Father Was
Have you ever seen that on Long Lost Family?
Just met via Ancestry a Young Distant New Cousin Lauren she is keen to learn and me to pass on before I pop my cloggs.
She mentioned her Father's Grandmother never knew who her Father's was. And also would never know.
I asked Lauren to obtain via her Ancestry Account a DNA Kit but in Her Own Name and Account (Lauren)
Get her Grandmother to Spit in the Tube and it would go off to Ancestry as Lauren herself.
Her Grandmother's Mother was a Domestic Servant but had to leave when she had the baby Daughter
Father Unknown
But Women then did Not go to Nightclubs and Pubs to meet other Men
She would have got Pregnant by someone she knew living very local
Finding her on a Census Living In as a Domestic Servant before her Conception
My Theory the Most Likely Father of the Baby was the Same Age of the Son of her Landlord
The Landlord would have had Great Expectations for his Son
and Not want him to Marry a Domestic Servant with a Baby
So they went their separate ways.
That Son would have had a Wife and Children and Descendants to the present day
who No doubt now, has opened an Ancestry Account and done the DNA Test
Even after Lauren's Grandmother has Died
Lauren will get Ancestry DNA matches in her Name for Years to come
It will Point the Finger to who that Father Was
Have you ever seen that on Long Lost Family?