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Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:19 pm
by martinfam
martinfam wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:19 pm Great aunt and uncles, Catherine, John, Bernard and Denis, all born about 1880 - 1889. My grandfather, Denis J Martin was married to Annie, they lived at 68 Watts Lane around 1920 - 1970. Looking for any information about his siblings, my great aunt and uncles that I didn’t know I had, putting together family tree and I assuming I have other relatives in the other tree branches. Stuck at trying to find information on them.


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updated with all the help information:

Bernard Martin b 1851 d?, spouse Catherine Lanegan b? d?, married 1876
Children

1 William Martin born 3 October 1878 as William Martan December Quarter 1878 Liverpool Volume 8b page 38 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lannigan
He was Baptised 13 October 1878

2 John G Martin aged 29 born 29 March 1882 Registered June Quarter 1882 Liverpool Vol 8b page 32 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lannegan
Obviously married and left Parents home.
Children
2.1 May b 1918? d?, spouse William or Owen Robert’s b? d ?, married 1947 or 1952 children?

3 Catherine b 1885 d?, spouse?, children?

4 Bernard b 1886 d?, spouse Jane Mageer b? d?, married 1914,
Children
4.1 Bernardina b 1916 d? Spouse ? children?
4.2 Lilian b 1920 d? Spouse ? Children?
4.3 Bernard W b 1922, spouse Muriel AR Fair b? d?, married 1945 Children ?
4.4 Mary b 1924 d?, spouse ? children?
4.5 John b 1927 d?, spouse ?

5 Denis b 1889, spouse Annie Mageer, married 1915
Children
5.1 Hilda b 1919 d1986, spouse Andrew b 1920 d 1986, married September 1945
Children
5.1.1 Dennis James
5.1.2 Peter
5.2 Joseph b 1921 d?, spouse Helen M Harris b? d?, married 1946, no children
Helen M Atkinson, 7 Sisters, 4 Brothers
5.3 James b 1922 d 1943
5.4 Ann (Nancy) b 1924, spouse Thomas C McKinstry, married April 1945
Children
5.4.1 Sandra A McKinstry b 1946, spouse Peter J Bondy
5.4.2 Roberta H McKinstry b 1952

5.5 Dennis b 1927 d 1953

6 Francis born December Quarter 1891 West Derby District Volume 8b page 479 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan, spouse Alice Rice b? d?, married July 1912
Children
6.1 Alice b 1914 d?, spouse ?, children ?
6.2 Ellen b 1916 d?, spouse ?, children ?
6.3 Verna b 1917 d?, spouse?, children?
6.4 Frank b 1918 d?, spouse?, children?
6.5 Winifred b 1920 d?, spouse?, children?
6.6 Joseph b 1929 d?, spouse Teresa Hignett b? d?, married 1954
Children
6.6.1 Carol b? , spouse Thomas Mcglynn, children?

7 Edward Martin born December Quarter 1895 West Derby Vol 8b page 492 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan
died December Quarter 1895 West Derby Vol 8b page 408 aged 0

8 James born September Quarter 1898 West Derby District Volume 8b page 516 Mother's Maiden Name shown as Lanegan

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:26 pm
by martinfam
Hi Alan,
Is there a better way for me to post pictures, yours are full size and better resolution, I use the add image to post but they are a link to a bigger picture? Any tips

Thanks PV

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:20 am
by ALAMO2008
martinfam wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:26 pm Hi Alan,
Is there a better way for me to post pictures, yours are full size and better resolution, I use the add image to post but they are a link to a bigger picture? Any tips

Thanks PV
I use this to upload no need to join or register
Upload size for Message Boards
Then select Copy when uploaded
Then Paste where you want it.


https://postimages.org/

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:32 pm
by ALAMO2008
2. Margaret Martin married a Leonard Roberts in Liverpool South September Quarter 1947 possibly May Martin ? Loads of kids David L 195

3. Catherine Martin appears not to have married

4 Bernardina appears not to have married
Bernard son married Muriel Fair 1945 possibly had Graham B Martin December Quarter 1949 in Hawarden

6 loads of Martin / Rice children


Loads of Martin/Evans Children

Several Hilda Martins

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:39 pm
by martinfam
ALAMO2008 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:32 pm 2. Margaret Martin married a Leonard Roberts in Liverpool South September Quarter 1947 possibly May Martin ? Loads of kids David L 195

3. Catherine Martin appears not to have married

4 Bernardina appears not to have married
Bernard son married Muriel Fair 1945 possibly had Graham B Martin December Quarter 1949 in Hawarden

6 loads of Martin / Rice children


Loads of Martin/Evans Children

Several Hilda Martins
Might be some possible distant relatives for my kids to learn about, I sent them a family tree update and said I was going to find them some relatives for Christmas :D

Some records possibly for 3. Catherine, possible marriage and a travel record, how likely single woman back then (PSA: only commenting on time period, not meant to offend anyone about women’s equality or other issues) would travel to US?

I found a few different May Martin / Robert’s records, I’ll go back and find details to post, back of a photo “Pat and May March 1949, England”, May photo shows May with ring, maybe engaged or already married during or before 1949?



Questions:

What does commissioned Pilot mean, in US they were / are usually officers that go to flight school? 5.5 Dennis news items describe him as commissioned Pilot

Golden anniversary news story states Denis Martin was retired member of Littlewoods security staff, do you know what Littlewoods is or was



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Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:18 pm
by ALAMO2008
Littlewoods was a Pools Company
Also a Department Store
And a Catalogue Mail Order Company with base in Crosby where I Mum worked in the Canteen there till she Retired and my Sister worked on the Call Centre

Commissioned Pilot means he was of Officer Rank

John G Martin married June Quarter 1902 an Ann Evans
David Charles Martin married June Quarter 1905 a Maud Evans
George Martin married December Quarter 1906 an Olga Winifred M Evans
George Waite Martin married June Quarter 1909 a Rose Evans
William L Martin married September Quarter 1912 an Annie Evans

Those Males may not be related but it certainly messes everything up looking for Children of a Martin/Evans marriage.
Only the actual Birth Certificate would sort anything out which could prove very costly.

Oh a Jessie Martin married December Quarter 1915 a James Evans

James Martin married March Quarter 1900 in West Derby Vol 8b page 449 a Catherine Evans

May Martin born June Quarter 1918 West Derby Vol 8b page 970 Mother's Maiden Name = Ann Evans

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:54 pm
by martinfam
ALAMO2008 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:18 pm Littlewoods was a Pools Company
Also a Department Store
And a Catalogue Mail Order Company with base in Crosby where I Mum worked in the Canteen there till she Retired and my Sister worked on the Call Centre

Commissioned Pilot means he was of Officer Rank

John G Martin married June Quarter 1902 an Ann Evans
David Charles Martin married June Quarter 1905 a Maud Evans
George Martin married December Quarter 1906 an Olga Winifred M Evans
George Waite Martin married June Quarter 1909 a Rose Evans
William L Martin married September Quarter 1912 an Annie Evans

Those Males may not be related but it certainly messes everything up looking for Children of a Martin/Evans marriage.
Only the actual Birth Certificate would sort anything out which could prove very costly.

Oh a Jessie Martin married December Quarter 1915 a James Evans

James Martin married March Quarter 1900 in West Derby Vol 8b page 449 a Catherine Evans

May Martin born June Quarter 1918 West Derby Vol 8b page 970 Mother's Maiden Name = Ann Evans
1911 Census Ann Martin (marriage date 1900, not 1902), lists daughter May, age 10 seems too old, does Caterham sound possible since most of the Martins were hanging around West Derby during that time frame.

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Also, found some matching records using Jane Ann Evans

What are crew lists? Maybe my John G.


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Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:54 am
by ALAMO2008
Caterham is in Surrey Hundreds of miles away from West Derby

Crew Lists are Staff employed on board the Ship

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:08 am
by martinfam
ALAMO2008 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:54 am Caterham is in Surrey Hundreds pf miles away from West Derby

Crew Lists are Staff employed on board the Ship
Thank you, definitely the wrong census record.

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:16 pm
by ALAMO2008
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Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:31 pm
by martinfam
ALAMO2008 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:16 pm

Thanks, I have many photos of my family, wish I would have asked more questions, but wasn’t in my nature as a kid.

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:17 pm
by martinfam
I was reviewing a letter from grandfather Denis J. March 1967 with mentions of the clan

Some bits of information. “The school of old is completely gone, that is Lime street to Church Street, all the markets and shops have been pulled down are a building a new modern school”. The pier head is now one big glass enclosure with shops and cafes and step out into warm enclosure to get a bus or your car.

Also some clues and references to family in same letter
Your cousin Bernard is living in Rhodesia (South Africa?), mentions sanctions as maybe an issue, has son named Bernard, 17 , visited his grandmother on his mother’s side and his Auntie May (unknown which side of family this May is)

May and Pat on Ecclestor Road (not sure on spelling from hand writing), visit a lot since her mum and dad have passed (2 John G Martin? and spouse ?)

Auntie May is doing well since Uncle Dan (maybe Daniel Mageer) passed

Auntie Kate named (maybe 3 Catherine)

Uncle Jimmy (maybe 8 James), wife Auntie Nelly had passed prior

Auntie Mary (maybe Mary Mageer) and all her clan in M/Chester are doing well


I am assuming Auntie or Uncle would mean to my mom, Denis J’s brothers, sisters and or their spouses, might be some nicknames or adopted names like Ann / Nancy

Anyhow, I keep going through the letters and each time I pick up a clue as I remember newly found names you helped me uncover.

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:59 am
by ALAMO2008
Piece of Experience I like to pass on to new Fellow researchers:-
Never view History with 21st Century accuracy eyes.
Remember History isn't a Record of the Truth of what happened.
It is a record of what people " Said" happened
Which may not be the Truth

I have 4 relatives the Mother registered their Births each of the 4 years in August
Their Birth Dates were declared as July just within the Time limit, otherwise she would have been fined for late Registration
However her Local Priest who she probably saw every Sunday and knew she Pregnant and the exact week she had each baby
Put pressure on her to have each baby Baptised right away, plus it was a normal priority anyway to ensure God ensured the baby survival.
Anyway the Priest Baptised each in May and recorded in his consecutive Baptism Log book that they were born in April and not the July following their Baptism 3 months earlier.

It was also tradition to name the first son after the Father and the first Daughter after the Mother

I should therefore have been named Sydney
But my Mum was in love with Hollywood actor Alan Ladd and she chose Alan
Had I been born a year or two later
I could have been called Shane

It was also Tradition to include a Mother's Maiden Surname as a Baby's second Christian Name so that the Surname didn't die out of memory.

I have one Relative Registered as Luke Oil Crawford

His Mother told the Registrar in her Accent that she wanted her Husband's Mother's Maiden Name = Oil

The Registrar asked probably How do you spell that which she couldn't so he made her make her X on the Birth certificate being unable to read or write and he recorded what he thought she said = Oil
However her Husband's Mother's Maiden Name was HOYLE

Never believe Birth Dates quoted on the 1939 Register as Gospel
In my experience they are only 60% correct
Always believe the Accurate Baptism record.

On Marriage Certificates
Ages can be made up
Batchelor/ Spinster made up.
Occupations made up
Residence address made up
Father's Name Occupation and Deceased made up

On Birth Indexes
Mother's Maiden Name only shown from September Quarter 1911 on Ancestry Freebmd and FamilySearch

But GRO Search Indexes show Mother's Maiden Name September Quarter 1837 to December 1919

Remember the Indexes were typed by Typists who often took their "Best Guess" at the handwriting on the document
And the Registrar took his "Best Guess" as what he though was said was the Baby's Name.
If the Parents couldn't Read or Write how would they know the Certificate was spelt wrong ?

Anyway before 1911 it didn't matter when you were born, you weren't going to get a State Pension when you reached 65

Hope this helps

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:09 am
by Glenys
How true; I have been researching my family and my husband's since 2004.

Thanks for the detailed information which will help newbies.

G.

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:35 pm
by martinfam
Alan,

Great explanation of how to view the information. I definitely was thinking of it as more precise records, that definitely helps me understand why there seems to be so many gaps, close duplicates and slight spelling differences in matching records (like Martin, Marton and Morton and Denis and Dervis).

In another example I tried a number of searches in FreeBMD on Martin surname and mother’s last name Rice for births and all the names and years seemed correct except one quarter there were two names and I didn’t think to consider that they might have had twins, or when my grandfather and grand uncle married sisters.

I think this forum should give you a separate thread where you could post your explanations of how to go about researching their family history, your skill, knowledge and willingness to help newbies is exceptional. Your timely suggestions, nudges and tips always help me when I seem to be stuck.

It also looks like there are a handful of experienced forum members that reach out and help new members, this forum makes researching family history quite enjoyable and I’m not sure I could progress without it.

Thanks, PV

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:27 pm
by BOBHAMO
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Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:39 pm
by martinfam
I found a possible Patrick for May’s Pat in 1949 photo “May and Pat, England 1949”

There are a few BMD marriage records for May Martin and Patrick Martin, of course it had to be the same last name!
BMD Marriages September 1953, Ealing, vol 5e p 571, Patrick J and May A, her mother is Ann Evans. Does that seem reasonable, where is Ealing and couldn’t find Patrick’s father or mother to see if some other links show up. 1953 seems a little late but the Pat is a match.

This is the May and Pat who lived on Eccleston road in 1967 from letter received, found an Eccleston in Liverpool and London / Ealing, Liverpool seems more likely because of comment about frequent visits, but marriage record is from Ealing, unless there is another Ealing.

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:42 pm
by ALAMO2008
martinfam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:39 pm I found a possible Patrick for May’s Pat in 1949 photo “May and Pat, England 1949”

There are a few BMD marriage records for May Martin and Patrick Martin, of course it had to be the same last name!
BMD Marriages September 1953, Ealing, vol 5e p 571, Patrick J and May A, her mother is Ann Evans. Does that seem reasonable, where is Ealing and couldn’t find Patrick’s father or mother to see if some other links show up. 1953 seems a little late but the Pat is a match.

This is the May and Pat who lived on Eccleston road in 1967 from letter received, found an Eccleston in Liverpool and London / Ealing, Liverpool seems more likely because of comment about frequent visits, but marriage record is from Ealing, unless there is another Ealing.
The Freebmd Record is for Ealing Middlesex London as confirmed by the Volume number 5e no other known Ealing

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/civreg/GROIndexes

Patrick obviously moved away possibly to marry a Cousin,
it happened in my Tree

With regards to these second Christian names the Family members all seem to have that are not on the Birth Certificate or Index

Catholic children before their Teens went for a Confirmation Ceremony at Church
where they were given a "Confirmation Name" after a Saint as a Second Christian Name.
My Wife's is Teresa
BUT its not on her Birth or Marriage Certificate
but is on Voters and Bank Account and Junk Mail

If a Child's GRO Birth Index Reference pre 1911 has no Mother's Maiden Name shown it is an indication that the child was registered in the Mother's Surname as she was not Wed and the Father will not be named on the Certificate.

Be aware when the Mother finally wed the child will most likely be known at school and locally as the Surname of her Husband who though never legally adopted the child brought up the child under his Surname and appears frequently as Son or Daughter and not Stepchild
So when unable to find a child's Birth index always check under the Mother's unmarried name.
I seen lots of cases where a Courting couple have a child before Marriage
Its registered in the Mother's Surname
Then they marry and the child is known under the Father's Surname who really was their Dad

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:40 pm
by martinfam
ALAMO2008 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:42 pm
martinfam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:39 pm I found a possible Patrick for May’s Pat in 1949 photo “May and Pat, England 1949”

There are a few BMD marriage records for May Martin and Patrick Martin, of course it had to be the same last name!
BMD Marriages September 1953, Ealing, vol 5e p 571, Patrick J and May A, her mother is Ann Evans. Does that seem reasonable, where is Ealing and couldn’t find Patrick’s father or mother to see if some other links show up. 1953 seems a little late but the Pat is a match.

This is the May and Pat who lived on Eccleston road in 1967 from letter received, found an Eccleston in Liverpool and London / Ealing, Liverpool seems more likely because of comment about frequent visits, but marriage record is from Ealing, unless there is another Ealing.
The Freebmd Record is for Ealing Middlesex London as confirmed by the Volume number 5e no other known Ealing

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/civreg/GROIndexes

Patrick obviously moved away possibly to marry a Cousin,
it happened in my Tree

With regards to these second Christian names the Family members all seem to have that are not on the Birth Certificate or Index

Catholic children before their Teens went for a Confirmation Ceremony at Church
where they were given a "Confirmation Name" after a Saint as a Second Christian Name.
My Wife's is Teresa
BUT its not on her Birth or Marriage Certificate
but is on Voters and Bank Account and Junk Mail

If a Child's GRO Birth Index Reference pre 1911 has no Mother's Maiden Name shown it is an indication that the child was registered in the Mother's Surname as she was not Wed and the Father will not be named on the Certificate.

Be aware when the Mother finally wed the child will most likely be known at school and locally as the Surname of her Husband who though never legally adopted the child brought up the child under his Surname and appears frequently as Son or Daughter and not Stepchild
So when unable to find a child's Birth index always check under the Mother's unmarried name.
I seen lots of cases where a Courting couple have a child before Marriage
Its registered in the Mother's Surname
Then they marry and the child is known under the Father's Surname who really was their Dad
Do you think Patrick was a cousin or coincidence he had same last name? Is there residence information to search for 1967 Eccleston road that might confirm a May and Pat Martin were living there? Or maybe I need to find if Bernard Martin b 1851 had brothers and develop those trees to find a potential cousin Patrick.

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:20 pm
by ALAMO2008
Sending for their Marriage certificate will provide so much information about their Fathers and the addresses and ages.
If you intend Not to expend money to send for Certificates
and think you can accurately research your Famiy Tree by solely using Ancestry
You will end up going down many a wrong road
creating your own version of Family History
Good Luck

Re: Looking for family information, sir name Martin

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:07 pm
by martinfam
ALAMO2008 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:20 pm Sending for their Marriage certificate will provide so much information about their Fathers and the addresses and ages.
If you intend Not to expend money to send for Certificates
and think you can accurately research your Famiy Tree by solely using Ancestry
You will end up going down many a wrong road
creating your own version of Family History
Good Luck
Thanks Alan. I expected I would need to make some purchases, I wanted to maximize any free research and refine the results as best as possible before buying information.

Once again your advice is spot on. I am still learning the vocabulary and some understanding of the era, norms and geographical area before buying information.

I will likely spend more time researching and then make some purchases over Christmas holidays.