Williams family, Marsh Lane, Bootle 1900-1960's

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Williams family, Marsh Lane, Bootle 1900-1960's

Postby Janetd » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:13 am

I have been researching my ancestry, but have got stuck with the female line on my father’s side.

My grandfather, Stanley Williams, was one of the 8 children born to William Williams. William was born in Westbury, Shropshire in 1850 and moved to Bootle, where he had eight children. Three of the children were 6 (William),4 (Mary) & 2 (Charles) at the time of the 1881 census and at that time William was widowed.

William went on to have a total of 8 children and my grandfather Stanley was the youngest (born 1891) of five children born to William & Martha. The other children were Harry (1883), Herbert (1885), Amy (1886) and Nellie (1888).

Most of the brothers lived in Marsh Lane (314-320) between Oak Street and Litherland Road when my father was a child (he was born in 1926) and my grandfather remained there until the mid 60’s. The brothers were carters and also had a yard where they kept the carts and horses between the end of Oak Street and Marsh Lane.

I have no information about William’s first wife, but I have established, through the ages of the children that he probably married Martha shortly after the 1881 census. I have searched the online marriage records but have been unable to establish Martha’s maiden name and wonder if there is anyone else out there who has any information about this branch of my family, if so I would be really pleased to hear from you.
Janetd
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Postby Thommos sister » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:01 am

Hi Janet
Just for the peeps here's 1881
7 Mill Lane Bootle
As stated Wm Williams 30 labr widowed,
Wm J, Mary & Charley all bn Bootle.
Widowed lady servant.
RG11/3693/85/41

The 1881 address may help working out where the kiddies may have been baptised.

1891 in Anc# he's listed as Williams Williams...
Wm,Mary & Charlie are with him along with new kiddies.
58 Cedar St.

T.S
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Postby Thommos sister » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:09 am

Hi Janet
You may need to buy birth cert for one the first 3 kiddies to find their Mum.

If you think his 2nd wife was Martha Ann Tunstall, try finding her in earlier census.

Cheers
T.S
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Postby Janetd » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:01 am

Thanks for your speedy response. All of the addresses you have quoted are correct, but your second email mentions Martha Ann Tunstall, which is a great deal more information than I had and I will certainly follow it up. I'd be really interested to hear how you linked her to the Tunstall family.
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Postby Thommos sister » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:06 am

Hi Janet
I looked for a marriage for Wm Wms in Free BMD to Martha & one came up in 1882 in W Dby.
Here's the link to the site
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Cheers T.S

Edited: Forget Tunstall, looked in Lancs BMD & she married the other groom listed in Free BMD and Wm Wms married one Annie Quirk.
Oh the joys of genealogy :roll:
Last edited by Thommos sister on Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thommos sister » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:50 pm

Hi Janet
I'll do some "wombating" & see what I can find re 1st wife.
Here's the gang in 1901

298 Marsh Lane
William Williams team owner/employer 51 bn Shrops
Martha 47(she's 33 in 91), Wm jr 26 teamster, Polly 24, Charles 21 teamster,
Harry 17 joiner/carpenter, Herbert 16 teamster, Amy 15 dressmaker, Nellie 13, Stanley 9 all bn Bootle.

Also in Bootle, 1901 at 23 Ash St is a John Williams stoker at the gas works born in Westbury Shrops.
He's a prolific breeder too with 9 children :wink:
I won't list this as you may already have the info.

TTFN
T.S
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Postby lily8 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:15 pm

I case you don't have it 1911

308 Marsh Lane Bootle home of 7 rooms.

William Williams head 62 born(this is a guess a bit hard to read) Washbury? could be westbury carting contractor employer married 30 years.

Martha wife 58 children born 10 alive 8 died 2 born Bootle
Mary dau 34 single at home b Bootle
Herbert 27 single carter b Bootle
Amy 26 single dressmaker b Bootle
Nellie 24 single dressmaker b Bootle
Stanley 20 single carter b Bootle.
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Postby Thommos sister » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:17 am

Hi Lily :)
Lovely of you to find them in 1911.
Married 30yrs is great news in view of what I've found.
I wonder which 2 children died?
Here's the kiddies from 1891, Wm 16, Mary 14 aka Polly?,Charlie 12, Harry 8,Herbert 6, Amy 4, Nellie 3.

Marr Dec qtr 1881 Wm Wms.......2 grooms only 1 bride
Same qtr, page trans error Martha Ascroft no groom.
Lancs BMD Martha Ascroft to Wm Wms Holy T Southport, North Sefton rego.
I can only think Martha moved to the parish for work as in 1881 she's living with her married sister in Bootle 104 Brookhill Rd.
Martha dressmaker 25 1856c bn BOOTLE.
There's only 1 birth 1854 W Dby rego.
1861 she's 7 yrs living in Litherland Rd. I won't list this until we are sure she is the right Martha.

Just walk the dog.

T.S
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Postby lily8 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:36 am

Good job Tina think she is the right one but Janet should get either the cert or a look up to make sure. Had a look for the first marriage but like a needle in a haystack williams everywhere :shock:

If Martha is an Ascroft I think the family line originates in Wigan and is an old family, plenty of them on LDS, won't get too far ahead of ourselves yet, but a possibility to get back many generations.
Last edited by lily8 on Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Janetd » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:50 am

Many thanks Lily & TS. I have the census records from 1871 through to 1911 and have the notes that I made from conversations with my father and grandfather. The two deaths is a mystery and I think they must have been born and died between censuses because the names on the censuses can all be accounted for. I have ordered a copy of the marriage certificate. The next step for me is to find out about William's first wife, the mother of William, Charley & Mary(Polly).

I am hoping that somewhere down the line I can uncover some of the descendants of my great aunts and uncles and I do have a few names, but am concerned about publishing details of people who could still be living!

Thanks again,

Janetd
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Postby Thommos sister » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:19 am

Good wombating Lily with the Wigan connection. Fingers crossed.
Hi Janet :)
Let us know how you get on with the marriage cert.
There is only one Charles Williams born in 1879 1st qtr W Dby rego making him 2 at the time of 81 census.
It could be worth sending for that birth cert stipulating his father is William. If not, they will only charge the search fee.
I had a look for a marriage of Wm to Mary (thinking perhaps the daughter was named after her mother) but too many of them.
Also, he may have married a Shrops lass & then moved to Lpool?
Could you tell us where he was in 1871? Tks.
As for living people, you could pm Lily & myself. I have membership with Genes Reunited too.
2 people have Martha listed and 1 has Wm 1847 bn Westbury.
If you'd like me to contact them, just sing out.


Cheers
T.S
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Postby lily8 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:41 am

Tina I think the first marriage was about 1873/75 so out of census range he may have been a waggoner in salop in 71????? your suggestion of a salop marriage is very likely as couldn't find a marriage in Liverpool around those dates-birth cert for one of the children will be a big help.
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Postby Janetd » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:58 am

Hi Lily
Lovely of you to find them in 1911.
Married 30yrs is great news in view of what I've found.
I wonder which 2 children died?
Here's the kiddies from 1891, Wm 16, Mary 14 aka Polly?,Charlie 12, Harry 8,Herbert 6, Amy 4, Nellie 3.

Marr Dec qtr 1881 Wm Wms.......2 grooms only 1 bride
Same qtr, page trans error Martha Ascroft no groom.
Lancs BMD Martha Ascroft to Wm Wms Holy T Southport, North Sefton rego.
I can only think Martha moved to the parish for work as in 1881 she's living with her married sister in Bootle 104 Brookhill Rd.
Martha dressmaker 25 1856c bn BOOTLE.
There's only 1 birth 1854 W Dby rego.
1861 she's 7 yrs living in Litherland Rd. I won't list this until we are sure she is the right Martha.

Just walk the dog.

T.S

Sorry missed your earlier ps re: Tunstall, which was the marriage certificate I had requested.

I have been trying to follow up on the Ascroft name, but have been unable to find Martha in the 1881 census or a record of the marriage to William Williams in Southport using either BMD or thegenealogist. However, I have found the record in the 1871 census for a Martha Ascroft in Wigan and a record of a marriage in Wigan, but not to Wm Wms. Do you have any more information that I can follow up on?
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Postby lily8 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:10 am

Janet the reference you probably want is December quarter 1881 at Ormskirk 8B 1185 (the ref for Marthas record shows11-5) stipulate the names to ensure you get the right one.

Cheers
Lily
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Postby Thommos sister » Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:51 am

Drats Janet, I'm so sorry you ordered the cert for Tunstall.
I should have gone to Lancs BMD right away, strewth how thick hey? :oops:
Can you cancel your order at all?
I'll speak to you closer to the Melbourne Cup, I'll back a horse for you!
I've asked a friend where the rego's for Holy T Southport are held.
Don't order that one yet, we may get SKP (some kind person) to do a lookup.
The marriage is at Lancs BMD 1881
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

1881 Martha Ascroft 25 sis in law of James Hanlon.
If you are using family search 1881 try James Hanlon bn 1849 Lancs living in Lancs.
(by the way he was a Master Chamois Leather Dresser)
Martha is a dressmaker, later in census she is an Upholsterer.
(James marr Mary E (Ellen?)Ascroft in 1872 St Alban)
There's also a James A Ascroft 14 listed as 2nd cousin :roll:
Her parents in 1861 were Thomas & Margaret.
They are still in Bootle in 1871, no Martha listed.

Walk the dog again...

T.S
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Postby Jan » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:29 am

:lol:

Great work Tina and Lily.

I found this website for Holy Trinity Southport, there is a parish secretary listed, perhaps if they are contacted they could tell you where the church records are kept.

http://www.holytrinitysouthport.org.uk/contacts.html

Jan
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Postby Jan » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:55 am

:lol:

The records for Southport Holy Trinity are at Lancashire Records Office.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/ ... &cid=-1#-1

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Postby Thommos sister » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:59 am

Thanks for link Jan.
Yes, we've been busy wombating away downunder :wink:
I've found the family in 1851 in Bootle, don't want to get too far ahead although their dghtr Elizabeth who is 9 appears not to have married & is still in Bootle in 1901 with a niece.
It's Wm's first wife who is the tricky one.

T.S :)
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Postby lily8 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:46 am

Hi girls I also holding back as we need to verify 1 the Martha marriage and 2 we need a birth cert from one of the first 3 children to be 100% sure we are going in the right direction. The first marriage that Janet is eager to follow will be very hard without those birth details as I and Tina are fairly sure it was not in Lpool. However is the Ascroft marriage is proved then we may have a long family line.
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Postby Thommos sister » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:29 am

Hi Lily :)
I cannot find baptism for the kiddies born to Wm's first wife that why I suggested getting birth cert for Chas.
Mary & Wm, well just too many hey?
Wife No.1 could have died in childbirth having Charles?
It's a toughie..

T.S
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Postby lily8 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:33 am

It is Tina really need that birth cert you suggested then we may be on a roll. By the way good stuff on the census details.
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Postby Thommos sister » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:59 am

Thank you Lily!
We make a good tag team with our wombating :wink:
Was that okies with you about pms for living people?
Although, if they are listed in Lancs/Free/Anc it's open to public viewing?
Thanks me dear

T.S

btw If you can't get to TAB, I'll put a bet on for you, run a slush fund here in the West :D
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Postby Janetd » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:22 pm

Wow, have you two given me some stuff to follow up on!!!!! I have PM'd you both, but I still need to follow up on some of the leads.

Please feel free to contact your links on Genes Re-united. I used to pay my subscription but was not getting much back and gave up a couple of years ago. I may still be registered and if so, you will find me on the Friends re-united site as Janet Williams

Many thanks for all your help.

Janetd

PS Neither of you have said what your links with Lancashire are - I'd be really interested to hear that?
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Postby Thommos sister » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:22 pm

Hi Janet :)
Will do GRU.
I was born in Wavertree. My maternal grandad's family came from Ulverston/Barrow. Grandma's mix of scouse/Irish.
My father's family Everton/Italian :roll:
Thanks for your pm.

T.S
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Williams

Postby Raymond J Maher » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:22 am

Eddie Williams is a poster on here,back track through the postings,he is from marsh lane.Also there is Williams in my family (Maher).Unfortunately i'm not up to date with the connection.a grandmother I thimk,possib ly my Mothers Mum.
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Postby Thommos sister » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:42 am

Hi Janet
I posted off a message in GRU and then put Williams bn Westbury in.
It brought up, by the same lister, 2 girls bn around the time of Wm & also an Edward bn Westbury 1824.
I've looked in the census.....how is this??

1861 "Stretton?" Heath Westbury
Edward Williams 37 rlwy labr bn Westbury (Edwd unm in 1851)
Catherine 35 bn Montgomeryshire Castle Caereinion
Sarah 10 bn ditto, Ellen 8 bn Welshpool, Mary 6, William 4,Elizabeth 1 all born Westbury.
RG9/1864/9/12

In 1871 Wm isn't with the family.
I won't get too far ahead with this until I hear from GRU but it's looking good hey Janet :)

T.S
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Postby Thommos sister » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:22 am

Me again
Please can you clarify from your pm about Hubert bn 1885 died 1916.
Is he the Herbert I've listed earlier in census?.
Tks

T.S
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Postby lily8 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:33 am

Janet thanks for your mail I won't do anything further until you get the certs,I have a lot of stuff but no use listing them without source docs or other verification.

Cheers

Lily
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Postby BOBHAMO » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:16 pm

hi janet first time i have said hello . hear are a couple of photos for you , bobhamoImage picImage pic Image
bootle born altcar road
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Postby Janetd » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:21 pm

Many thanks for this Bobhamo,

Would you believe that Liverpool City Council compulsory purchased the two on the right circa 1965 to knock them down. They paid the princely sum of £750 each - guess they had their moneys worth. I spent many a happy hour sitting on the front step with the little girl next door, but for the life of me I can't remember what her name was.

I suppose the budget place is rather apt as it used to house horses & carts.

Rgds,

Janet

PS Lily & TS - If you are reading this, I will respond to your posts at the weekend. Am having to work far too hard this week!
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Postby Ed Davies » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:58 pm

Hi Janet
The people living their in 1962 where
314 Edwin A Nelson
316 Stanley Williams
318 Rowlands -
320 John Critchlow

Don't know if this helps you remember your friends name.
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Postby Janetd » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:16 pm

Ah Nelson does ring a bell, but my grandmother always had a very formal relationship with her neighbours, so I only ever knew them as Mr & Mrs Nelson, but perhaps now their daughter's name will come to me. Stanley Williams was my grandfather, but I don't recognise either of the other two names.

Thanks for the information, though Ed.

Rgds,

Janetd
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Postby Thommos sister » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:46 am

Hi Janet
I've had a reply from GRU, a lovely friendly lady.
Good breeders this Shropshire lot :wink:


"My William Williams was b1857 in Westbury, Shropshire. His sister Ellen was my Gt Gt Grandmother. William and Ellen's parents were Edward Williams b1824 also in Westbury and Catherine (surname unknown) b1826 in Castle Caereinion, Montgomeryshire. Edward and Catherine appear to have had 8 children - Sarah b1851, Ellen b1852, Mary b 1855, William b1857, Elizabeth b1860, Emily b1862, Catherine b1867 and Edward b1871."

Confirms we had the correct parents.
I will reply asking more about William and wife No. 1.

Enjoy your weekend

T.S
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Postby Janetd » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:45 pm

Hello TS,

Great to hear about your William Williams. Doesn't seem that we were looking for the same needle in the haystack then. My William must have been born in 1850/51 and I think he was probably employed at Cardiston Park at both the 1861/1871 cunsuses. As its such a common name, I've not been able to locate the exact dob, but have spent some long nights trawling through the birth records!

Do, please, let me know how you get on with your enquiries as we might eventually cross over somewhere!

Rgds,

JanetD
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TS & Lily

Postby Janetd » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:39 am

Many thanks for all your wombating. Wish I could have devoted as much time as you over the last few weeks. I have, at long last sent for the Birth Certificates of my grandfather Stanley & his older brother Charles in the hope that I get some information about Martha and William's first wife. Will let you know when they arrive.
Rgds,
JanetD
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