Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:20 am

moving this on the 1911 census shows that Peter and his wife had 11 children 9 of whom were still alive at that date.

The children were
Margaret A
Thomas Henry 'Harry' see earlier post married Phyllis
Jessie E
Gladys Evelyn may have married George C Drummond 1916
Peter H
James A
[b]Edith M married Ernest Henry Woods our posters direct family
[/b
]Mabel S
Amy
Sarah E
William
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:46 am

No record exists for the Ascroft Golding marriage most likely is the following

Marriages Jun 1914   (>99%)

Ascroft
 Henry
 Gouldon
 Marylebone
 1a
1424
  
Ascroft
 Thomas H
 Gouldon
 Marylebone
 1a
1424
  
Gouldon
 Gertrude P
 Ascroft
 Marylebone
 1a
1424
Probably she was known as Phyllis.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:33 am

From 1939 it looks like 2 of the brothers Peter and William were in business as estate agents in Bootle in my opinion I would think that they were ideally placed as estate agents given the volume of housing the family owned at that time just prior to WW2. As Bob has already pointed out Bootle suffered so much bomb damage and I am unsure exactly what if any compensation was made to home owners( see attachment below)

Peter H Ascroft wife Sarah and child Sarah E at 153 Stanley Road

William A Ascroft wife Ruth and sons William E (estate agents manager) Peter A (solicitor) at 157 Stanley Road

War Damage notes::
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... ls/r/C1035
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby BOBHAMO » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:42 am

Glamis road is not far from me :lol: :lol: :lol:
st margerets burnt down late sixties
have photos and will take some of glamis
great info Lily :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:46 am

Thanks, Id love to have the record.

60s was the fine he got for failing to report for duty.

I found a press report about it in the Liverpool Echo entitled "Better in Khaki".
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:48 am

Since both Flash Harry and Nellie name spouses, at some point they must have divorced?
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:59 am

I know one story about Jess Ascroft. She eloped with a brother of my grandfather EH Woods (ie 2 sisters ended up married to 2 brothers). It was said that the night she eloped she laughed so much that the buttons on the front of her dress popped open one by one...
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:09 am

HvonBlumenthal wrote:Since both Flash Harry and Nellie name spouses, at some point they must have divorced?


Henry I will look further at divorce records as yet no luck
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby Shelagh » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:34 pm

This family are so interesting..fascinating history, definitely the makings of a good period drama :wink:
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:40 pm

lily8 wrote:From 1939 it looks like 2 of the brothers Peter and William were in business as estate agents in Bootle in my opinion I would think that they were ideally placed as estate agents given the volume of housing the family owned at that time just prior to WW2. As Bob has already pointed out Bootle suffered so much bomb damage and I am unsure exactly what if any compensation was made to home owners( see attachment below)

Peter H Ascroft wife Sarah and child Sarah E at 153 Stanley Road

William A Ascroft wife Ruth and sons William E (estate agents manager) Peter A (solicitor) at 157 Stanley Road

War Damage notes::
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... ls/r/C1035


I'm not absolutely sure these are sons of Alderman Peter. At least, I do know that his son William (1879-1957) married Marian Hocknell (1884-1971). Their son Peter (1912-2007) married Lorner Hehir. This information is certain as I got it from the latter's daughter.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:45 pm

lily8 wrote:A little bit more on Constance ::

It seems that Nellie and Constance emigrated to Canada in 1914 as they show up on the 1921 Canadian census in Calgary, either Nellie(Ellen) was divorced (yet to find out), however she is shown as the wife of Albert Prime who is listed as step father to Constance Ascroft (a clerk). Albert Prime is showing as arriving in Canada originally in 1907.


If you have access to Canadian records can you tell me anything about my grandmother's time in Canada? She was Edith May Woods (born Ascroft, Alderman Peter's daughter). Her husband was Ernest Henry Woods (1880-1918 - in an earlier post was a photo of his RAF grave). They emigrated to Canada in about 1906 but I'm not sure when they returned - maybe on the outbreak of war so he could join up.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:52 pm

HvonBlumenthal wrote:I want to repeat my thanks to Lily, Bob, TH and Dave.

I agree the Ascrofts are a really colourful family, with heroes and rogues, rich and poor.

I knew my grandmother Edith May Ascroft ( a daughter of the Mayor) fairly well, she only died in 1981. She had been a widow for 63 years poor thing. She was very well spoken (genteel even) and played the piano beautifully; she knew Greek, Latin, French and German. When she marriedmy grandfather EH Woods he took her to Canada where he worked as a timber broker for Montague Meyer. They lived in a log cabin and had to trade with the Indians.

He went into the RFC and rose to sergeant, in fact he was a buyer of wood for the planes. He caught the Spanish Flu and died on Christmas Day 1918, when my mother was 2 months old.

Henry von Blumenthal




Here is a picture of Alderman Ascroft's daughter Edith May in about 1906, with her hound.




7.1 KB nay49meb_medium.jpg Check Error
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby BOBHAMO » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:13 pm

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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:45 pm

HvonBlumenthal wrote:
lily8 wrote:From 1939 it looks like 2 of the brothers Peter and William were in business as estate agents in Bootle in my opinion I would think that they were ideally placed as estate agents given the volume of housing the family owned at that time just prior to WW2. As Bob has already pointed out Bootle suffered so much bomb damage and I am unsure exactly what if any compensation was made to home owners( see attachment below)

Peter H Ascroft wife Sarah and child Sarah E at 153 Stanley Road

William A Ascroft wife Ruth and sons William E (estate agents manager) Peter A (solicitor) at 157 Stanley Road

War Damage notes::
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... ls/r/C1035


I'm not absolutely sure these are sons of Alderman Peter. At least, I do know that his son William (1879-1957) married Marian Hocknell (1884-1971). Their son Peter (1912-2007) married Lorner Hehir. This information is certain as I got it from the latter's daughter.


I will check later today I suspect there may have been later marriages.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:23 pm

I have checked and as you can see it is a bit confusing as there are 3 names attached to Ruth I suspect that as she is shown as an unpaid domestic(usually a wife or mother) that she 'belonged' to one of the males however having blown up the image she and the two boys are listed as single, the father as married. Note that she is marked as an air raid warden and the 3 males as special constables. Both boys are showing in birth registers ith mothers maiden name Hocknell as does a sister( Marian). Could Ruth be Marian???????

Added later::: I did find the mother Marian (listed as married but living alone) but she was at another address

Ascroft Household (1 Person)
4 Pembroke Road , Bootle C.B., Lancashire, England
Marian
Ascroft
26 Oct 1886
Unpaid Domestic Duties



Image



Later:::: I think that the Ruth listed above may indeed be daughter Marian here is the birth regn::
Births Sep 1916  and a marriage
 

[b]Ascroft
 Marian R
 Hocknell
 W.Derby
 8b
451
  


Marian R Ascroft
Date of Registration:
Jul-Aug-Sep 1941
Registration district:
Bootle
Lancashire,
Spouse:
Cecil Pritchard
I think it would be safe to say that Ruth was Marian??[/b]
Last edited by lily8 on Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:49 pm

HvonBlumenthal wrote:Since both Flash Harry and Nellie name spouses, at some point they must have divorced?


Hi Henry can find no records of divorce as yet, however would the marriage between Nellie and Harry be deemed legal in the sense that he married under an assumed name?
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:53 pm

HvonBlumenthal wrote:
lily8 wrote:A little bit more on Constance ::

It seems that Nellie and Constance emigrated to Canada in 1914 as they show up on the 1921 Canadian census in Calgary, either Nellie(Ellen) was divorced (yet to find out), however she is shown as the wife of Albert Prime who is listed as step father to Constance Ascroft (a clerk). Albert Prime is showing as arriving in Canada originally in 1907.


If you have access to Canadian records can you tell me anything about my grandmother's time in Canada? She was Edith May Woods (born Ascroft, Alderman Peter's daughter). Her husband was Ernest Henry Woods (1880-1918 - in an earlier post was a photo of his RAF grave). They emigrated to Canada in about 1906 but I'm not sure when they returned - maybe on the outbreak of war so he could join up.



I have yet to trace them on the 1911 census (this census is a bit tricky) in Canada, I do have a departure from Montreal and arriving in Liverpool 12th September 1914 on the Scotian with the following:::

Ernest Woods 33 Lumber Broker (that fits)
Edith Woods 28
Gladys Woods 6
Alfred Woods 4
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:58 pm

Great photos Bob well done you, always come up trumps :D
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:20 am

lily8 wrote:
HvonBlumenthal wrote:
lily8 wrote:A little bit more on Constance ::

It seems that Nellie and Constance emigrated to Canada in 1914 as they show up on the 1921 Canadian census in Calgary, either Nellie(Ellen) was divorced (yet to find out), however she is shown as the wife of Albert Prime who is listed as step father to Constance Ascroft (a clerk). Albert Prime is showing as arriving in Canada originally in 1907.


If you have access to Canadian records can you tell me anything about my grandmother's time in Canada? She was Edith May Woods (born Ascroft, Alderman Peter's daughter). Her husband was Ernest Henry Woods (1880-1918 - in an earlier post was a photo of his RAF grave). They emigrated to Canada in about 1906 but I'm not sure when they returned - maybe on the outbreak of war so he could join up.



I have yet to trace them on the 1911 census (this census is a bit tricky) in Canada, I do have a departure from Montreal and arriving in Liverpool 12th September 1914 on the Scotian with the following:::

Ernest Woods 33 Lumber Broker (that fits)
Edith Woods 28
Gladys Woods 6
Alfred Woods 4


Yes, thats them. Ernest Henry Woods, Edith May Woods (nee Ascroft) my aunt Mable Gladys Woods (later Sandon) and my uncle Freddie Woods. My mother Edith May was born 4 years later.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:30 am

lily8 wrote:
HvonBlumenthal wrote:Since both Flash Harry and Nellie name spouses, at some point they must have divorced?


Hi Henry can find no records of divorce as yet, however would the marriage between Nellie and Harry be deemed legal in the sense that he married under an assumed name?


Well contrary to what most people think, unlike in most countries you can change your name legally as often as you like without any formality, you don't even need a deed poll; you can do it every five minutes if you like. So legally, Harry Trevor was his real name at the time of his marriage.

And the court granted her conjugal rights, meaning the marriage itself. So I am pretty sure they were actually married.

However maybe they thought the marriage was invalid and both committed bigamy without realising it!
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:17 am

Hi again Henry I was trying to be a bit discreet on that one, divorce in those times was horrendously expensive for most people unless uber rich or titled.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:37 am

lily8 wrote:Hi again Henry I was trying to be a bit discreet on that one, divorce in those times was horrendously expensive for most people unless uber rich or titled.

I reckon the Ascrofts could have afforded it in those days?

One thing I noticed which could be relevant (not exactly sure how) is that the daughter Constance was only baptized in 1911 aged10
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:47 am

HvonBlumenthal wrote:
lily8 wrote:Hi again Henry I was trying to be a bit discreet on that one, divorce in those times was horrendously expensive for most people unless uber rich or titled.

I reckon the Ascrofts could have afforded it in those days?

One thing I noticed which could be relevant (not exactly sure how) is that the daughter Constance was only baptized in 1911 aged10


Henry here is a transcript I checked on the 1921 Canadian census which lists what religion and it's stated as Church of England so that would explain the delay not a catholic baptism which would normally be within weeks of birth.

Name:
Constance Ascroft
Gender:
Female
Birth Date:
1901
Baptism Date:
1911
Baptism Place:
St. Margaret's, Anfield, Liverpool, Lancs, England
Father:
Thomas Henry Ascroft
Mother:
Ellen
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:17 am

C of E are normally baptized at birth too. Its only with 1st Communion that there's a difference, RC do it when the child is quite small, confirmation follows a few years later. In Cof E confirmation is the pre requisite for 1st communion.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:39 am

Really can't say much more on this other than some of my C of E relatives did not get christened until later in life. I can only hope that Constance had a good life.

Image
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:53 am

Actually it calls to mind another detail of history. Edith May was so angry with God for her husband's death when her daughter was only 2 months old that she refused to have the baby baptised.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:18 am

I can't say I blame the lady to have suffered through WW1 only to lose him just awful.

As requested Thomas Henrys records
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If you look carefully at item 8 you can see very faintly that the name Gertrude Goulden listed as wife.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:08 pm

Many thanks. It gets odder and odder. How come he spelled his own wife's name wrong, and why was she living in London? And how come she couldn't produce a marriage certificate?

And in at least one place he calls himself Ashcroft. Its as if he is deliberately vague about his identity
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:50 am

Sorry Henry I can't answer those questions except to say that in war time papers may have been lost due to bombing etc, they were married for sure.

A little further on Marian/Ruth above she sadly lost her husband in the war

Commonwealth War Graves gives the following

Cecil Pritchard
Given Initials:
C
Rank:
Lieutenant
Death Date:
26 Jun 1944
Number:
311622
Birth Place:
Cheshire
Residence:
Bootle
Branch at Enlistment:
Royal Armoured Corps
Theatre of War:
Western Europe Campaign, 1944/45
Regiment at Death:
Royal Armoured Corps
Branch at Death:
Royal Armoured Corps

Also from probate records

Pritchard Cecil, the Caravan Twist Farm Green Lane Ford Nr Liverpool, died 28/6/1944 on war service to Marian Ruth Pritchard effects 380 plus pounds.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:57 am

This is such a sad tale poor Marian/Ruth left a widow but not only that she was pregnant at the time of Cecils death delivered of a son a few months later

From Freebmd public domain

Births Sep 1944   
Pritchard
 Cecil W D
 Ascroft
 Crosby
 8b
966
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:53 am

Thanks Lily, yes it is sad. Have you noticed how in the programme Who Do You Think You Are? they always end up crying?
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:41 am

Hi Henry the 'Genies' here on the forum who help with family research often end up in tears, I think shows like WDYTYA do give the 'guest' person a real sense of family.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby lily8 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:51 am

I spent some time today looking for Ernest and Edith in Canada (to be honest Canadian records are a bit hit and miss and the National Archive site a bit unwieldy) but nothing coming up in the census. Of course they may have been away or missing from the census or mistranscribed , what if anything do you know of their time in Canada any areas other than perhaps Ontario????
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:31 am

my you are kind and generous with your time!

They lived in a log cabin near Calgary. My grandmother told me she learned to cook baked beans in tomato sauce "it takes hours and if you get it right it tastes exactly like Heinz baked beans from the tin".

My grandfather worked with (or for) Montague Meyer, but quarrelled with him and threw him down stairs. This was a mistake as Montague Meyer's company is now Meyer International, the worlds biggest timber business.

His job was to select trees for felling. This meant negotiating with the Indians and each negotiation would end with smoking a peace-pipe.

She congirmed that whisky made the Indians crazy, they would come back from visiting a rodeo in calgary high as kites.

That's all I know except this: although my grandmother worshiped his memory for the 63 years of her widowhood, my uncle Freddie who was 8 when he died said he hated his father. The M. Meyer story suggests a violent streak or maybe too much alcohol.
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Re: Peter Ascroft, Mayor of Bootle 1900

Postby HvonBlumenthal » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:39 am

I should have added, Ernest and Edith Woods first two children, Gladys Mabel (1908) and Alfred (1910) were both born in Canada. Maybe birth certificates would suggest an address?
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