Rifleman Simon Gavan (4158)

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Paul McCabe
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Hi, I've just discovered I'm related to Rifleman Simon Gavan (4158) of the 5th Kings Regiment Company who was stationed at Hut 19, North 2, Park Hall Camp in Oswestry in 1917.

I would like to know if he survived WW1 ?. I know nothing more about him.

The only information I have is that on 4th February 1917 he sent a letter to my Great Grandmother Mrs Frances Roberts (Nee Gavan) from the above barracks.

She lived from 1850 to 1918.......so he could be her nephew ?.

Sadly, the letter is nowhere to be found. Drat.

Thanks.

P
lily8
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Hello Paul I searched under the surname Gavan and service # given but no records, there are however medal index cards for Simon Gavin which lists service #'s 4158 5th Liverpool Kings and 201685 1/7th Liverpool Kings so must assume the same man. I will check with CWGC to see if any entries.
Lily
lily8
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A search of CWGC shows no deaths for either Simon Gavan / Gavin with those service #'s
Lily
lily8
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Had a look at the possible births for Gavan/Gavin within the years 1880/1900 could only locate this one


Births Mar 1888

GAVIN Simon Liverpool 8b _2
Lily
spud4210
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Gidday Paul,

Simon Gavin's service record survives :-)

Enlisted 30/08/1915 with 3/5th KLR
Embarked from Southampton 10/02/1916
Wounded 06/10/1916 GSW Arm Left
Invalided to England 29/06/1916
Posted 7th Res KLR 07/12/1917
Posted 1/5th KLR 22/04/1918
Demobbed 01/04/1919.

Hope this helps

Spud
lily8
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Well done spud :D

Not all great deal of family history on those papers other than an address of 5 Barmouth St Liverpool and a NOK brother John address c/o 3+4 St Georges Bldgs Liverpool. As to a family connection have traced him back to 1901 and his father was Thomas Gavin born Ireland, it's no stretch that Gavan/Gavin could be interchangeable in those times due to accents etc. Can you give any further information on your Gt Grandmother or her family did she have a brother Thomas?
Lily
spud4210
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lily8 wrote:Well done spud :D

Not all great deal of family history on those papers other than an address of 5 Barmouth St Liverpool and a NOK brother John address c/o 3+4 St Georges Bldgs Liverpool. As to a family connection have traced him back to 1901 and his father was Thomas Gavin born Ireland, it's no stretch that Gavan/Gavin could be interchangeable in those times due to accents etc. Can you give any further information on your Gt Grandmother or her family did she have a brother Thomas?
Thanks Lily :D
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BOBHAMO
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park hall camp
Paul after 1917 the camp was used by the labour corps by the kings
this unit used soldiers who where not fully fit to go back in action
they where used for other dutys at the front
the camp was also a P,O,W CAMP


The increasing demand for soldiers to maintain and develop the diverse infrastructures that were essential for the war effort led to the formation in January 1917 of the Labour Corps. It grew in size to almost 400,000 men by early 1918, absorbing seven of the nine labour battalions in the process. This included Albert’s 23rd (Works) Battalion of the King’s (Liverpool Regiment), which became the 1st Battalion of the Labour Corps in April 1917.

Those in the Labour Corps were medically assessed on a regular basis. Medical categories had been reclassified in June 1916. Grade “C” at that point indicated that the soldier was fit for home service only, but from January 1917 men with sub-categories of “Ci” or “Cii” could now be posted overseas.

In June 1917, Travelling Medical Board (TMB) No.7 classified Albert as “Ci” with the comment that he was “likely to be fit.” The “i” sub-category determined that soldiers were suitable for duties with a garrison or provisional unit.

At the start of August 1917, TMB No.7 again assessed Albert and down-graded him to “Cii.” Those with this category could have duties with Labour units or outdoor employment with a garrison or regiment. The physical requirements for a “Cii” were that a man should be able to walk to and from work for a distance of not more than five miles and have hearing and sight that was sufficient for ordinary purposes.


A re-organisation of the Labour Corps from May to June 1917 led to the creation of a number of Home Service (HS) Employment Companies. Albert became a member of the 560th HS Employment Company, stationed in Chester. Starling and Lee comment that these companies consisted of men of the lowest possible medical categories so that those fitter could be posted overseas.5

Albert was soon on the move again: on 1st November 1917, he was posted to the Western Command Labour Centre (one of eight Labour Centres which covered Britain and Ireland) at Park Hall Camp, Oswestry.

Bobhamo
bootle born altcar road
spud4210
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Great pic and info Bob many thanks

Spud
Paul McCabe
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WoW.....thanks Lily, Spud & Bob Hammo for your excellent & interesting input.

Lily; Yep, that looks like our man Simon born in 1888.

Regarding Frances Gavin, I can confirm their family home was in Barmouth Street (anyone know where that was ??.....Google doesn't) also that her father was called John Gavan & she married William Roberts on 4/3/1873 at St Albans Church in Athol St. Liverpool...........they lived at 75 Athol Street.

I can't confirm that she had a brother Thomas........but if I was a gambling man I would put my proverbial shirt on it being the case.

So "Thanks a Bunch" (again).

Spud; Thanks for Simon's 'Track Record'.......am relieved to hear he survived the horror of WW1...........I notice he spent from February to October in 1916 witnessing God only knows what before being wounded in the arm (anyone know what "GSW" refers to on his Service history regarding his injury ?).

Bob Hamo; That was such an interesting clip you submitted on Park Hall Barracks...........imagine almost half a million men in the Oswestry area........imagine the logistics & all without any computers etc.............must take a drive out there sometime. Thanks Bob.

Imagine sitting down with Simon for a few pints after that little excursion in his life.....!!???.......you would need a crane to get your jaw off the floor.

Thanks again.

P

PS; Got this off my mate Google;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01qmrmr
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BOBHAMO
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Barmouth street ,between Boundry and athol street
bobhamo
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spud4210
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Hi Paul,

G.S.W generally means Gun Shot Wound..... It more of a case of shrapnel caused by shells exploding either over head or nearby

Regards

Spud
lily8
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Good research Bob :D

Hi Paul as to where he was posted it was Etaples and it looks like he may have been at some stage in a mortar battery as he completed a mortar course in the field. He was in France about 7 months and back to Blighty with a gunshot wound to his arm. Due to the interchange of Gavan/Gavin it is a little difficult to follow the line but I am reasonably sure he was a printer and possibly married a Margaret Jones in 1921 so there maybe rellies around.



Marriages Sep 1921 (>99%)

Gavan Simon Jones W.Derby 8b 993
Grainger William J Love W.Derby 8b 993
Jones Margaret Gavan W. Derby 8b 993
Love Alice Grainger W.Derby 8b 993
Lily
Paul McCabe
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Well, well, Simon Gavan has morphed from some scribble on an envelope by my mother to someone I feel connected to. Thanks all.

Bob; That map tells it own story.........every detail you could possibly need is there in legible detail........I used it to explore the area this very morning. Thanks.

Spud; "GSW" = 'Gun Shot Wound'......Thanks.....as I read it I felt like Homer Simpson...!! (DOH). Cheers.

Lily; Simon was @ Etaples, he was a printer, he married in Sept 1921 to Margaret Jones.....!!.... OMG.........What size shoes did he take ?? !! ( J-O-K-I-N-G). Unbelievable detail, like a photo-fit picture. "Thank You" sounds a bit insufficient, but as I'm gob-sacked, it'll have to do for now.

Thanks all again.

PS;Asked my mate Google about Etaples......it was a dangerous place to be;


http://www.throughtheselines.com.au/research/etaples
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BOBHAMO
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Paul looking in the 1938 diretory
there was a Simon Gavan 43 july road L6 a Printer
could this be your Simon
its only round the corner from me if you want i will take a photo
Your story of his life ,like most of the questions asked on the forum
are a interest to the genies, and myself ,keeps are brains going :D :D
bobhamo
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Paul McCabe
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Hi Bob, Thanks for the research, & 'Yes', I would be delighted to be added to the now quite significant Bootle landmarks you have recorded on this site.

I'm sure Simon & his family would have been honoured too........they will join an illustrious club !!.

Thanks again in anticipation.

Cheers

P
.
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BOBHAMO
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hi Paul its the middle one only 2 beds :D :D
a well kept street in anfield
bobhamo
43 july road anfield
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Paul McCabe
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Thanks Bob, that's "above & beyond the call of Duty".....!!.......please accept my gratitude as being "mentioned in despatches" to keep the parlance military. (ha)

I'll be up there soon on me bike.

Much appreciated.

Cheers

P :-)
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BOBHAMO
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Paul they where still there 1968 :D :D
its okay Paul :D :D :D
i really enjoy going around looking things up
wonder if he is buried local mabe anfield
one for the genies :D :D :D
bobhamo
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42aitch
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Simon and Margaret (1876) were there in the 1939 Census Register on find my past. Also managed to search for Simon's birth - 4/11/1887.

Eileen
Litherland girl with Bootle parents.
Paul McCabe
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So Simon Gavan lived to be over 80yrs of age, I'll bet he never thought that would ever happen during those dark days in Etaples.

Many thanks again to Bob, Eileen, Spud & Lily for taking the time to research him for me.

I cycled to July Road today, it was nice to walk in his footsteps.........must have a pint in the nearby Claremont Pub next time.......I'll bet he'd have skulked into there occasionally.

I recall finding that envelope just a couple of days before deciding to post on this forum as it was burning a hole in my skull........that would have been November 4th.....which we now know is Simon's birthday. (!).

Funny old World innit ?. :-)

Cheers.

P
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BOBHAMO
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Glad you had a look Paul :D :D :D
you are one of the most dedicated posters who takes
the time to go and see the places that are important to you
if i can help again just ask
bobhamo
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Paul McCabe
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Well the "Lockdown Loft Clearance" has given up Simon Gavin's letter written on 4th February 1917 from Park Camp, Oswestry.

(See below)

He was writing to my Great Grandmother as he was her nephew.

He was in Oswestry recovering from Gunshot wounds having been injured at Etables.

It must have been Hell in Oswestry as he was prepared to return to France rather than be there...!!

He did indeed return & survived WW1.......Simon must have been a tough nut to crack (!)

It's an interesting insight into a young WW1 soldier's mind.

I'll transcribe as the copy is small;

= = = = = = = = =

4/2/1917 Rifleman S Gavin, 5th Kings Reg, Hut 19, North 2, Park Camp, Oswestery.

Dear Aunt,

I arrived at this place last Friday week, & it is the absolute limit.
They should have sent us to the North Pole & be done with it.
I have been doing nothing else only washing dishes & scrubbing floors etc since I came.
That is what they call here; "Light Duty".

We are in Huts, heated by a small stove & when 5 or 6 of us get around it, the rest have to jump about to keep themselves warm.
Nothing else only Inspections here.
When the Commanding Officer comes around you would think he was a blessed Field Marshall, he has so many Officers with him.

They treat us 'Expeditionary Men' scandalously, the idea being, I suppose, is to break our hearts so that we will go out before our time.

I'm fed up with the place & I'm afraid my chances of going to Manchester are very remote indeed.

I hope you are keeping well yourself & that Will is working away. Remember me to all at home.

Don't be surprised if I am down for (4) days leave shortly.

For I will volunteer to go out again to France before I stick it here.

Your Nephew,

Simon

= = = = = = =

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BOBHAMO
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WW1 what a way to treat serving men
at least Paul you have remembered Simon
and its on the internet for ever

bobhamo
bootle born altcar road
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