UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Join in here with our very own Bootle Chatterbox...

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby Invicta » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:20 am

Ernie, I view it as if she was a CEO in business.
On her watch we failed in security , the manifesto was way to extreme and her campaign was negative and complacent.
Now,I don't for one minute, think she thought all that up by herself but she has surrounded herself with "advisors" who got it wrong and the other senior ministers were too weak to challenge them or her. That doesn't fill me with confidence for the Brexit negotiations under her leadership.
She should step down as PM but call another election before the men in grey suits replace her .

Phil, The young people certainly impacted on the result. The Uni towns show this.
Sir Julian Brazier lost his seat in Canterbury, Kent, after 30 years , a safe Tory seat for 99 years.
The young Labour candidate overturned a huge majority largely due to a connection with students in the area but Brazier was also a very vocal Brexiteer and a boring old fart to boot.
Ken - Disgruntled of Tunbridge Well
Invicta
 
Posts: 1932
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:46 pm
Location: Garden of England

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby Invicta » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:21 am

Invicta wrote:Ernie, I view it as if she was a CEO in business.
On her watch we failed in security , the manifesto was way too extreme and her campaign was negative and complacent.
Now,I don't for one minute, think she thought all that up by herself but she has surrounded herself with "advisors" who got it wrong and the other senior ministers were too weak to challenge them or her. That doesn't fill me with confidence for the Brexit negotiations under her leadership.
She should step down as PM but call another election before the men in grey suits replace her .

Phil, The young people certainly impacted on the result. The Uni towns show this.
Sir Julian Brazier lost his seat in Canterbury, Kent, after 30 years , a safe Tory seat for 99 years.
The young Labour candidate overturned a huge majority largely due to a connection with students in the area but Brazier was also a very vocal Brexiteer and a boring old fart to boot.
Ken - Disgruntled of Tunbridge Well
Invicta
 
Posts: 1932
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:46 pm
Location: Garden of England

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby Ernie Jackson. (Bunty) » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:21 am

Phil.

Points taken...but who else would you recommend...(unbiased opinion please)

Politically it is usual, and easy, to criticise anyone in power at any level but there is seldom any sensible antidote proffered?

The SA situation could not possibly be compared here. Mandela types are seldom available, taking all things into consideration. I doubt anyone on the planet would mention Mandela and Corbyn in the same breath.

We might well all be in the same boat if this coalition takes place so neither party will be able criticise the other for like actions.

I am biased so would choose the tory direction rather than have Corbyn anywhere near the helm.

Bear in mind that he has now done his very best and there is no doubt his strategy was superb BUT this is his pinnacle so whilst he is Labour leader it will never get better than this.

A loss is a loss by whatever margin. He lost but thinks he won as his loss wasn't as bad as everyone mistakenly forecast. Being an Evertonian, by his thinking, I should be convinced that we have never lost to Liverpool as the score wasn't as bad as I had anticipated.
User avatar
Ernie Jackson. (Bunty)
 
Posts: 918
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby Ernie Jackson. (Bunty) » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:41 am

Ken.

I totally disagree that she failed on security.

In security it is termed 'the mouse hole problem' in that you can fill the existing hole but another one will appear elsewhere. However one addresses the terrorist security problem they (the terrorists) will always and forever find a way. I doubt we will ever be able to eradicate the mice permanently.

I would be glad if any country in the world can solve this as we will never get into the minds of the terrorists who believe they are right.

I could have produced a manifesto and presented it better than the so called experts. For example, the so called dementia tax was a huge improvement on that already in existence and the public were never shown the comparison so believed it was a new tax. Those in care have to spend virtually everything they have, including their house, before qualifying for benefits.
User avatar
Ernie Jackson. (Bunty)
 
Posts: 918
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby Glenys » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:58 am

Ernie,
Re the "dementia tax", I agree it was not presented well. I was talking about this with a friend who did not know the present arrangements...................... :roll: ......!! The proposed tax is a step in the right direction, but it should be higher.
Lived Linacre Lane, Trinity Road & Knowsley Road.
Glenys
 
Posts: 1295
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:43 pm
Location: North Merseyside

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby filsgreen » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:03 pm

Fair points, Ernie, it is a stretch of the imagination, however, Mr Mandela still killed people in the pursuit of what he believed in. My example could have been better, but I don't suppose there is much difference between the person who pulls the trigger and the supporter of the assassin. If indeed Mr Corbyn was a proven supporter of the IRA.

I would suggest Philip Hammond or Michael Gove as alternative leaders. Philip Hammond certainly has experience and his alleged comments of likening gay marriage to incest, is in line with his new bed fellows :D

As you may be aware I wanted a hard Brexit, I felt we would have got that with the Conservatives in charge, but you can't have everything you want. Albeit a great result for Mr Corbyn, it was double edge sword for me. Labour being in power for me, was more important than a hard Brexit. Now I have neither, only the premise of a resurgent Labour party.
filsgreen
 
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:28 am

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby tom91 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:06 pm

This mornings Daily Mirror has dubbed May's attempt to form some sort of alliance with the DUP as the "Coalition of Crackpots"

I think that is crossly unfair on the DUP
tom91
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:03 pm

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby Ernie Jackson. (Bunty) » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:10 pm

Fake news has become a popular comment and can apply to most newspapers, left or right, depending on their allegiance. :)
User avatar
Ernie Jackson. (Bunty)
 
Posts: 918
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby filsgreen » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:32 pm

Nick Timothy, Theresa May's chief of staff has took some responsibility for the disaster and has resigned.

http://www.conservativehome.com/platfor ... viser.html
filsgreen
 
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:28 am

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby filsgreen » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:01 pm

Ernie Jackson. (Bunty) wrote:Bear in mind that he has now done his very best and there is no doubt his strategy was superb BUT this is his pinnacle so whilst he is Labour leader it will never get better than this.

I've been thinking about this, Ernie and although i am bias towards Mr Corbyn; I feel this quote by Tony Benn is prevalent.

'It's the same each time with progress. First they ignore you, then they say you're mad, then dangerous, then there's a pause and then you can't find anyone who disagrees with you.'

Once the election rules were imposed, the media had to try to be unbias. When this kicked in, people began to view him in a different light. Not you obviously. :D Now I'm the half empty cup type and I'm very optimistic about my pessimism, but I'm thinking that we haven't seen the last of Jeremy Corbyn.

It maybe that if another election was called due to the coalition being untenable, more of the youth may see the effect they had on the result and register to vote for Labour. I read that the difference was just. 2277 votes, there were several marginal results.

Although, of course the Conservatives may get their act together and possibly prove you right.
filsgreen
 
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:28 am

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby BossHogg » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:19 pm

filsgreen wrote:BH. How did you feel about Mr Mandela being a remember of the ANC, before he became a statesman, after being released from prison? My point being, is that Mr Corbyn may have been an IRA sympathiser in the 80"s, but can't he be afforded the same clemency as Mr Mendela?

The election result did not demonstrate the 'whole country's" desire to leave the EU, Ernie, if that was the case, we would have a Libdem government this morning, as they practically guaranteed it in their manifesto.

According to the political commentators, it was The youth vote that identified with Mr Corbyn's manifesto, which led to the Conservative debacle.

Yes, it's possible that the youth did not want a hard Brexit and voted for Labour, as they said they would prefer a soft Brexit. Listening to BBC 24 NEWS yesterday, the consensus was that the election was nothing to do with Brexit.

On that subject, why would EU Brexit negotiators respect Mrs May in any negotiations? She displayed neither leadership or debating skills in the election campaign, unless of course she pre-orchestrated it.


Image

I had no thoughts on Mandela as I was only a child when he was first incarcerated, however, I am ex British forces and have lost friends at the hands of PIRA and have narrowly avoided being killed twice whilst serving in Northern Ireland.
I am running the Great North Run in aid of RNLI. Please sponsor me at https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ScouseTom1
User avatar
BossHogg
 
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:19 am
Location: Netherton, Maryport.

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby lily8 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:15 am

From the other side of the world I was somewhat bemused and dismayed to see the biased reporting in the UK press throughout the election campaign not that I should have been really Aussie press is not much better. Interesting to note the following:::::

UK press weekly print and on-line readership (for papers over 1 million) in March 2013
Newspaper(s)
Effective owner/s


Information about effective owner/s
Political orientation of newspaper/s

Rupert Murdoch
Billionaire. Lives in US.
Alleged tax avoider.
Supported Tories in 2010

The Mail/ Mail on Sunday
Lord Rothermere
Billionaire. Lives in France.
Non-domiciled for UK tax

Supported Tories in 2010
Metro
 Lord Rothermere
Billionaire. Lives in France.
Non-domiciled for UK tax
Supported Tories in 2010

Mirror/Sunday Mirror/ People
Trinity Mirror plc
Public Limited Company
Supported Labour in 2010

The Guardian/The Observer
 Scott Trust Ltd
A company with purpose “to secure  Guardian’s independence”
Supported Lib Dems in 2010

Telegraph/ Sunday Telegraph
David and Frederick Barclay
Billionaires. Live on private island near Sark.
Alleged tax avoiders.
Supported Tories in 2010

The Times/ Sunday Times
Rupert Murdoch
Billionaire. Lives in US.
Alleged tax avoider.
Supported Tories in 2010

The Independent/ i/Independent on Sunday
Alexander (father)and Evgeny (son) Lebedev
Alexander is a billionaire, ex-KGB and lives in Russia. Evgeny lives in the UK
Supported anti-Tory tactical voting in 2010

London Evening Standard
Alexander and Evgeny Lebedev
Alexander is billionaire, ex-KGB and lives in Russia. Evgeny lives in UK
Supported Tories in 2010

Daily Express/Sunday Express
Richard Desmond
Billionaire pornographer.
Alleged tax avoider.
Supported Tories in 2010

Daily Star/Daily Star Sunday
Richard Desmond
Billionaire pornographer.
Alleged tax avoider.
Supported Tories in 2010

Daily Record/ Sunday Mail
 Trinity Mirror plc
Public limited company
Supported Labour in 2010

Financial Times
 Pearson plc
Public limited company
Supported Tories in 2010




Readership of UK press (for papers over 1 million) in March 2013 by effective owners
Effective owner(s)
%  of combined print and online (print alone)
Lord Rothermere
27.3       (27.8)
Rupert Murdoch
24.9       (27.9)
Trinity Mirror plc
13.0       (13.9)
Alexander and Evgeny Lebedev
10.6       (10.1)
Richard Desmond
  8.2        (9.2)
Scott Trust
  7.3       (4.7)
David and Frederick Barclay
  6.8       (5.1)
Pearson plc
  1.8       (1.5)
Over a quarter (27.3 per cent) of the press is owned by Lord Rothermere and 24.9 per cent by Rupert Murdoch  – between them these two men have over 50 per cent of the printed press.
Over three quarters (77.8 per cent) of the press is owned by a handful of billionaires. There are only 88 billionaires among the 63 million people in the UK and most of the barons do not even live in the UK.
Lily
lily8
 
Posts: 10816
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:57 am
Location: Far North Queensland Australia

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby Invicta » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:31 am

Hi Lily,
The Editor of the London Evening Standard is no other than George Osborne ex Chancellor with the Cameron Government. He was very critical of Mrs May and their Manifesto.
Maybe sour grapes but he pulled no punches.
Did you know the LES is now a free, giveaway paper, a good read for those train home commuters? ( If you like adverts that is ). :D Ken
Invicta
 
Posts: 1932
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:46 pm
Location: Garden of England

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby Invicta » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:40 am

Ernie, I was travelling most of yesterday so sorry for the delay in responding.
As to security, lets say the perception was she failed on security, as in the run up to the Election we had the terrible terrorist attacks which happened on her watch.
Labour didn't exploit that too much but May wasn't robust enough in her response, people had little confidence that she was on top of it or could handle it. It was her chance to show she was in charge and she failed.
As suggested, the advisors have done the decent thing, she should now call an Election, step down and go back to organising the village fete which I'm sure she would be very good at. :D Ken
Invicta
 
Posts: 1932
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:46 pm
Location: Garden of England

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby bjones » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:48 am

I take Lily's point on the press but In the interest of equity I have to say that without exception every Facebook "thingy" I got was from the Labour party.

The election campaign on social medai was so full on that my son (who only occasionally logs on to FB) posted the following which made me chuckle and sums up how many felt;

"Dear Facebook friends, I don't know about you but when I signed up to this it was to keep in touch with people that I don't see that much in day to day life and to see how they are doing, not to have their political beliefs rammed down my throat. It's not that I don't care whether Corbyn is godfather to Gerry Adams' kids or May will give the NHS to Jeremy Hunt's mates for a fiver, it's just that I am capable of researching facts and forming my own opinions. Don't take this personally but I have reviewed my friend list and the number of people I consider to be thought leaders or opinion formers on the economy, social justice, law and order or immigration is a big fat zero.You wouldn't turn up at a pal's house uninvited and start unilaterally spouting off about this, that or the other so stop it on here, it's boring, Now can you all just go back to posting photos of your lunch?"
Bee

"Life" is a gift to you. The way you live your life is your gift to those who come after.
User avatar
bjones
 
Posts: 4809
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:22 pm

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby Invicta » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:04 am

Not to mention the onslaught from a certain Bootle FB friend. I really must learn to copy and paste :D. :!: Ken
Invicta
 
Posts: 1932
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:46 pm
Location: Garden of England

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby mckenna » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:59 am

HI TO all members enough is enough then election is over no party won outright tories pro up by D.u,p. labour prop up SNP &LI DEMS
its about time MP s did something about the people and the countries future labour about austerity go to other bcountries and see what
poverty is we are lucky to some Nye Beven gave us the welfare state and we should be lucky Tories to much on Brexit not enough on
explaining the the manifesto for all the people the old like me say goingninto care ect so lets forget in fighting and get on with sorting are problems out NO not Johnson and no not Corbyn George
g mckenna
mckenna
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:13 pm
Location: winsford cheshire

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby mckenna » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:09 am

Ps after thought save money get some of the Lords what areb they there for is £200a day expenses some of the it about time they retired
also millionaires dont need the money all on big pensions George
g mckenna
mckenna
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:13 pm
Location: winsford cheshire

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby filsgreen » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:28 am

I take your point, Bee, but if it is left to the media to give the public news of what is happening, how are we supposed to make a balanced judgement? I was glad to receive info through FB.

Anything i didn't need to see or view; I scrolled past. It's much the same as the member who said that if they did not like what someone had posted or if it was a member they didn't like, they didn't read it.
filsgreen
 
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:28 am

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby bjones » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:42 pm

by filsgreen
I take your point, Bee, but if it is left to the media to give the public news of what is happening, how are we supposed to make a balanced judgement?

Precisely the point I was making in my opening sentence Phil
I take Lily's point on the press but In the interest of equity


the further point I was making was that there was so much of it that even an occasional FB user felt swamped by it. In my case it started to feel like junk mail in my email; I know I must have missed important (to me) messages scrolling through the unwanted stuff.
For me, the most important phrase in my son's post was

"it's just that I am capable of researching facts and forming my own opinions"

I do this by reading up on facts. For example the so called "dementia tax" - not enough people bothered to research what the current system is and if they had I'm sure the average person would have agreed with Glenys that it's actually a step in the right direction.
After this post I'm going to post something I picked up from Facebook today (thanks Glenys, again :D )
Even a life long Labour supporter such as I can hear what's being said therein.

.
Last edited by bjones on Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bee

"Life" is a gift to you. The way you live your life is your gift to those who come after.
User avatar
bjones
 
Posts: 4809
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:22 pm

Re: UK Election - 8th of June 2017

Postby bjones » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:46 pm

This is an old story reworked but it really does bear repetition.... in my book it speaks to "who will pay for it all"

"I have just read a comment on a friends Facebook page that I agree with so much that I just had to copy & paste it hereunder:-

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Corbyn's vision of socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Corbyn's ideological plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for £ 's )something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
It could not be any simpler than that

There are five morals to this story:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receivin
g.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

The last one to leave turn the lights out."
Bee

"Life" is a gift to you. The way you live your life is your gift to those who come after.
User avatar
bjones
 
Posts: 4809
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:22 pm

Previous

Return to Chat about anything with the Bootle Bucks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest