A changed world or changed attitudes?

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A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby lily8 » Sun May 14, 2017 1:20 am

I'm of the opinion that this country is riddled with the "I'm alright Jack" mentality and they are only interested in that they c an get for themselves. What if Britain had have adopted today's mentality in August 1945?

Britain was totally skint then and it had to borrow heavily to develop the welfare state and build homes for for heroes. The Labour Gov't were brave enough to do this and were endorsed by the working class populace.


I have copied this from another thread on the coming election and thought it might be a good topic to discuss.

I personally grew up in the 1950,s to mid 1960,s and will give my thoughts of life then, Great Britain was certainly cash strapped owing huge war loans (which I think were only finally paid off a few years ago) and I remember having to get the 'book' to get the weekly lollipop :D . I lived for the most part in a council house and we were by no stretch of the imagination POSH, like most families we were short on cash but large on love. Yet even in those austere days we had the local doctor whom you visited if only very poorly, the district nurse and midwives (angels) who visited daily the sick and ailing. We had local pensioner flats run by the local council, nursery schools one of which I attended at I understand no cost. The schools gave us free milk, and for the needy free school dinners, we also were supplied with pencils and exercise books with the city crest on at no charge, schools often ran after school activities again at no cost. The community in those days cared about their fellow men and women, my family due to a bed ridden mother was very grateful for the kindnesses shown to her by our neighbours. It was not unusual to see 3 generations of family living in the same house as most folks took the oldies in as they aged (no care homes for them). The mentally ill were cared for in hospitals and not left on the street though it saddened many families when loved ones were 'put away'.
I am a pragmatist and know quite well those years were not easy and nor do I look at that time through tinted glasses but with a sense of nostalgia for the caring days gone by. I think the poster as quoted above has got it right with his 'I,m alright Jack' rather like the old song 'The working class can kiss my aXse I.ve got the bosses job at last. Any thoughts??
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Sun May 14, 2017 11:37 am

This needs a bit of thought Lily but the biggest change is "Aspiration"
Kids today are more worldly than us, better educated (far more go to Uni) they travel more and have global TV and social media to open their eyes.
They don't go to small schools around the corner, don't expect or want a job for life in the local mill because Dad & Grandad worked there, they are much more mobile and they aspire to better themselves.
The NHS, Social Welfare etc are things to be admired but very expensive to maintain with an increasingly, growing, aging population. People are living longer which requires pensions to be paid for longer, more medical treatment and social care all of which I fully support being State funded from Tax & Nics. We need the kids to aspire to better jobs to be better skilled and educated to get those jobs, earn better money and pay their taxes like most of us did.
Labour lost the last election because their manifesto lacked "Aspiration" , people didn't want more of the same . The latest manifesto is a throwback to the 60's/ 70's and I doubt other than the Unions and Vlad many will see any merit in it. :wink: Ken
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby filsgreen » Sun May 14, 2017 3:20 pm

Yes, Ken, today's generation aspire to be better than others, but most of the time, at the expense of others. Maybe that's a generalisation, as there are many good kids out there, but it seems to me that most of the kids think they know everything, but in reality they know very little of life and civic responsibility.

Having met many nursing students over the years, their caring attitude is tempered with the need to attend to their God, the mobile phone. I have had to prompt many a student to stop what they were doing on their phone and attend to the needs of the patient.

And by the way, common sense is not very common, amongst their ilk. Yes, there are exceptions to this observation, but they are few and far between.

Yes, they've been to Uni, studied the complete works of Ringo Starr and in the gap year went to Machu pichu to "find themselves, both culturally and spiritually. They are probably living the life their parents and grandparents probably wanted for themselves, and might have had, if they hadn't have been putting the whole family before themselves.

It is our fault, well not mine because I have no children. Kids born through the past couple of generations have been spoiled to the nth degree, as successive parents have over compensated their children by trying to give them the things they never had. It appears to me that many of the children today know the cost of everything, and the value of nothing.

Why do parents need to buy their children expensive Ipads and Playstations at Xmas and dozens of Easter eggs and then put it on Facebook?

We laugh at our childhood, when we received a tangerine, a couple of mixed nuts, a shilling in sock and a present at the bottom of the bed. But as Lily observed, families looked after each other holistically and although there was little material wealth, there was an abundance of love and affection.

Generalizing again, the same photo of the kid with about £500 of presents for Christmas, will probably not feature their grandparents in the background. It can't, as they are probably in sheltered accommodation or a residential home, because they gave sold their home to fund the lifestyle of their grandchildren. But don't worry, little Tommy will endure the visit to grandma's home, that doesn't smell very nice, on Boxing day.

As for the burgeoning cost of the Welfare State, it appears that people didn't mind the expense in the 1950's, when they had to find the massive setting up cost to the country. Why shouldn't this generation, pay for their retirement pension?

Oh, sorry, they are too busy vilifying the 'Baby boomers" for having the temerity to vote to leave the EU. Lamenting that they hadn't, because they couldnt be bothered to get off their arses to register and they couldn't get their parents to do it for them. Resenting the fact that they have to pay for their university education, when the 'old ba$tards' got theirs for nothing.

Well this is a veritable diatribe to your post, Ken, with some honest views on today's society. A shrink would probably have a fine time with me. :D

Getting to know you through your posts and the odd phone call, it appears to me that, like many of the members of this forum, your family is probably the polar opposite to my observations. And I must say that this is a generalisation of my perception of life in Britain today.

We all want our children, and in my case, eight Godchildren to succeed in life, but it can't be at the expense of others less fortunate. However, we have seen the apparent demise of family life, and altruism amongst society. Yes, you'll see videos of people displaying acts of kindness, but what I ask myself is, why do they have to put it on Facebook?

Maybe this is a simplistic opinion of a very large sociological problem that can't be solved by the average citizen, but we can help to resolve it by remaining true to our parents and grandparents ethics and values.
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Shelagh » Sun May 14, 2017 11:40 pm

Interesting debate, and I'm sure there will be many more to come before June!!

Thought I would share a couple of facebook posts with you. My niece who has been in the nursing profession for many years is understandably very concerned for the future of the NHS!

Just a few views to consider before placing your mark!

The full list of the 24 A&E units marked for closure: https://inews.co.uk/nhs/full-list-24-ae ... d-closure/

How do outsiders view British politics, below is an example!!

Image

Some food for thought.....
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Mon May 15, 2017 8:50 am

Morning Phil,
I hope your dyspepsia is better this morning? :wink: Ken
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby bjones » Mon May 15, 2017 9:28 am

Great thread to provoke discussion Lily!
I could write for about 3 weeks on this but thankfully for all of your boredom thresholds I'm up to me eyes busy so will just leave you with a single thought....
Does anyone else notice the change in the balance between RIGHTS and RESPONSIBILITY/DUTY? Seems to me that post WWII people accepted their duties and responsibilities readily but had lesser expectations from life; subsequent generations are very well versed in what their rights are but seem less willing to accept that with privilege comes responsibility.
A little example of the attitude; I worked for the entire 1980s in a UBO (dole office). I grew very tired of listening to teenagers TELLING me to sort out THEIR money. I'd occasionally ask if they knew where "their" money came from..... ever felt like you've got 2 heads? Contrast that with most of the older claimants ... the majority of these hard working people were embarassed to find themselves out of work and having to claim anything from a welfare fund into which they'd contributed for many many years.
I certainly don't want to go back to the days of doffing yer cap to the boss but something has certainly been lost over the years since WWII.
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Mon May 15, 2017 12:25 pm

Reminded me of that woman off Bread, Bee. K
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Patricia » Mon May 15, 2017 5:17 pm

This certainly is an interesting subject that you have brought up, Lily.

I have always been amazed and proud of the accomplishments of certain members on this Forum who have stated they slept several to a bed growing up and had their Dad's army coat as a bed cover.These individuals now enjoy holidays abroad and have homes of their own through their own hard work and aspirations. I believe it has changed over the years because the need to improve ones living and life conditions are now so much better that their needs and wants are on a different scale.

From my own personal experience, my three girls were expected to work from the age of sixteen over their summer holidays at Busch Gardens or as Jillian did, at a Hallmark Store and Record Shop for the summer. She refused after one year at Busch to work there again in the intense heat monitoring rides and brushing up the grounds. It is still a major source of "Summer Employment" for the youth of the Peninsula today.

Janine, after she married and had her own home, sponsored an English Girl, Elizabeth, for one year in her senior year. This young lady then returned
to England, obtained her degree from Nottingham University and immediately left for Nicaragua to teach English for a year. She has aways kept in
touch and told me that they were keen to learn and realized the benefits of learning the language to better their lives.

My Granddaughter, Meghan, who has just graduated, sponsored an underprivileged child for her entire three years at University despite a heavy
workload. It is usually a four year course here.

After careful consideration, I believe the majority of today's young people, if raised well (!!) are proactive and positive contributors to society. There is
perhaps a small minority which has this sense of entitlement and a "me" mentality but I certainly wouldn't tarnish everyone with the same brush!

Just my thoughts on the matter!







O
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby bjones » Tue May 16, 2017 8:41 am

Invicta wrote:Reminded me of that woman off Bread, Bee. K


Martine.... yes, it has been said :lol:
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Patricia » Tue May 16, 2017 12:20 pm

"Invicta wrote:
Reminded me of that woman off Bread, Bee. K

(Bee wrote:
Martine.... yes, it has been said :lol:"

Helpful hint for those who are too young or have no idea regarding "Bread!" :D

Storyline of "Bread" a tv series from the 80's..............

The Liverpool-based Boswell family are experts at exploiting the system to get by in life. Despite the fact that none of the Boswells are officially employed, they manage to live a fairly good life thanks government handouts and various cash-in-hand jobs. Family life for the Boswells centres around their God-fearing Catholic mother, Nellie. With her husband having left her for "a tart", she relies upon her eldest son, Joey, to play the father's role to her other three sons, Jack, Adrian and Billy, and her daughter Aveline. Their ability to squeeze the DHSS dry, while the boys earn a living on the side, is legendary. But, although the family is the focus of their lives, they each have different reasons to be unhappy!
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Tue May 16, 2017 5:11 pm

A very accurate summary Patricia, you have a good memory. :D Ken
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Patricia » Tue May 16, 2017 10:27 pm

:D :D :D :D Ken, Wish I could take the credit but I copied it verbatim
from "Google!" :lol:
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby lily8 » Wed May 17, 2017 1:53 am

Thanks folks for the input into this topic, talking of the educational level I agree with Ken that Uni students are certainly more worldly than we Baby Boomers were but more intelligent? I do not agree with that. I have found that many degree courses are spoon fed to students and some of the degrees offered are IMO are not at all rigorous or even relevant. In fact one would hazard a guess that soon we will have a glut of people with degrees and no jobs for them. One of the biggest debts (which equals 1/6th of the National debt) is owed by students in student loans, as of 2013 this stood at 46 billion pounds and expected to rise to 200 billion pounds in the next 20 years a frightening prospect. Added to this are the students who after gaining degrees have disappeared off the map and the Government has little prospect of recovering tax payers money in at least 400 thousand cases. I guess the majority of students are decent hard working kids only seeking to enhance their opportunities and are deserving of every chance and that's fine with me. What I don't get is the students who rave about the Baby Boomer generation whose tax dollars enable them to access student loans.
I personally am all for free education at the tertiary level but I think maybe those days are long gone (sadly neither I or my boys got to uni for free) but I would support a means tested program to provide for course fees to be reduced or waived.
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Shelagh » Fri May 19, 2017 11:38 am

Lily, have to agree with you regarding spoon fed degree courses...
Not wanting to put any young person off, but really, it's all about attitude, (with some anyway)
Daughter teaches at local uni, and now busy marking essays, these students have paid a lot of money to be educated, but the majority, not interested, not even bothering to turn up for lectures, all making excuses and blaming one another (just like little children) it's such a shame, she reckons, one or two from a group of twenty, may get work in the media industry..other than that, not a hope in hell!!
Similar situation on many other courses, again, all about attitude and how to apply yourself, some try to get work experience while studying, others just won't bother..too lazy!!
Only way for a student to gain paid employment is through work experience..not trying to dampen aspirations, but the workplace isn't school, employers want details of proven track record...not photos of gap year spent in Machu Picchu :wink: (Where is that Phil :lol: )

Means testing, good idea for course discounts..some very bright youngsters out there,
only thing standing in their way...lack of finance :(
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby filsgreen » Fri May 19, 2017 12:47 pm

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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Shelagh » Fri May 19, 2017 1:27 pm

Of course it is Phil..silly me :roll: where else would one go to find oneself :lol:
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Patricia » Fri May 19, 2017 2:56 pm

Shelagh - If the children are lackadaisical about their education in University
then really, don't you think it's up to the "PARENTS" to do something about it?
I remember my eldest Grandson had that attitude when first entering Uni
i.e. "Party Hearty!" and his parents immediately told him if he didn't "Settle
down to business" he was "Out of There!" It certainly did the trick and he
is now enjoying working, saving hard and paying off his Student Debt!
Living at home for the first year to do this.
His first job, he is making more than his Aunt Janine who teaches Ninth
Grade at Menchville High School and has her Masters Degree!
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Sat May 20, 2017 11:20 am

Just a different slant on this topic. During our long sea journey we were served by mostly lads from Goa in India or Filipino girls as waiters or cabin stewards. They earned USD$ 900 per month (£750) plus tips which say brought it up to £900 per month (tax free)
At home, if they could find work in Goa at a hotel say they would be paid USD$ 2 per day. The Filipinos could expect $100/150 per month. Of course on board it includes meals and a full medical service but they work 10 hour days, 7 days per week. ( I learned this from chatting with them over 4 months )
They are all required to speak English to a decent level , be service minded and well turned out.
The contracts are for 9 months with 2 months break including air fares home. Many have Spouses and kids back home who they do not see for 9 months but kids from those parts are queueing up to get a job with the cruise lines.

Some might say that's no life but those kids have great aspirations to do better for their families and after a few years of working at sea they are usually sorted financially in their own countries. I have the highest respect for them, they are hard working kids with a very positive attitude doing some very tedious jobs. Ken
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Shelagh » Sat May 20, 2017 4:08 pm

Patricia, good to hear that things worked out well for your grandson, great that he's now settled and progressing in his career, all sounds good, but unfortunately, some don't have such parental backing!
Many students coming from different backgrounds..different circumstances!!
First year students starting uni at average age 19-20 (adults) considered capable of making choices and taking responsibility for their own actions, surely after going to the trouble of taking out a loan of thousands (£9000 tuition for one year) excluding living expenses..you would think that they might just turn up for a few of the lectures, or at least put in an appearance now and again at the establishment :roll:

On the other hand, if students choose not to take degree seriously, and leave uni empty handed, there'll still be jobs for them, just not the ones they once aspired to, plenty of drivers/delivery, call centres or service industry jobs available, most coming under the £21,000 threshold, that would mean paying back less on the loan!!

Most graduates will leave university with a debt of £44,000 some owing £64,000 :shock:

It's such a shame, I've known some to spend a fortune, work hard, get the degree and still finish up working in Argos..most having no work experience in chosen profession (not exploitation) but useful experience..it really does help :)

Ken, know what you mean about the attitude of the unfortunate people working aboard cruise liners..can't help but feel sorry for them, the money making cruise company's will know that these people are easy to exploit, but as you say, to Indian/Pilipino staff this is a very good opportunity to make money and a decent standard of living for them and their families..suppose we've all got to do the best we can for our own..such a pity some get treated so badly, especially by some of the U.S. cruise company's!!

And so the subject of attitude continues :wink:
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Patricia » Sun May 21, 2017 3:40 am

I guess, in the end, one's perception depends on their own life experience and that of their family
and friends and the available opportunities of where they live.There are always going to be a percentage
of "Bad Apples" in life's rich pattern, but I certainly have not given up on to-day's Youth! Bernie's
"Holly" is one I would back right now!!!!!!

I only know that to obtain a student loan here at the age of l8/19 one has to have a co-signer which
invariably is a parent, who will then be responsible for the student debt if the student defaults
in paying same back.

Finally, Shelagh, there are plenty of alternative cruise lines other than the U.S. that employ
their personnel from other countries at the basic rate. For example, a cruise we were on, a
Norwegian line, most of their waiters, maid service, bartenders, etc. were from Romania, worked
their rears off but always seemed grateful for the opportunity. When we go to Duck, N.C. for
our Beach week, there are hundreds employed from various countries in the restaurants and
stores and say how glad they are for the opportunity to come here for the summer to work and
we have also seen the same returnees year after year. I guess it all depends on what they are
trying to escape from or wanting to make a difference in their own lives.
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Matt » Sun May 21, 2017 5:47 am

Totally agree with you Patricia regarding cruise lines but you know Shelagh the largest
line "Carnival"" is a co- owned line British and American and includes P&O, Princess,Cunard and Costa. Oceania who Sheila and I always sail with
is owned by Norwegian Cruise Lines even though their head office is in Miami so I think the generalisation about staff being treated badly by US owned lines
just is not true.Most of the staff on cruise ships are hired through a central agency and not by the ship or even the cruise company. Most people are contract workers except for
the engineers and the staff in the boutiques on board are on commission. Casino staff all have to be licenced and bonded.
The only part about abuses stems from Donald Trump. Crew members on their first contact are not allowed ashore in ports in the USA by order of the racist President and certain
nationalities are not allowed ashore in large cities in the USA no matter how many contacts or ships they have been on.
Rant over.
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby lily8 » Sun May 21, 2017 7:54 am

I am astounded by the greed of companies and also if Ken is correct the blatant disregard for health and wellbeing of their contracted employees. 10 hour days 7 days a week for a period of nine months at little more than 3 pounds an hour I for one would not cruise just for that reason alone. It is in my personal opinion nothing more than exploitation of people that have little options. At the prices charged by Cunard and the likes in todays world they should pay decent wages, when I think of his nibs grandmother who worked as a nurse with the Bibby line I think she would turn in her grave. For exactly the same reason I won't buy anything that comes out of sweat shops in Asia, though it is getting harder and harder to buy Australian and British made goods anymore.
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Sun May 21, 2017 9:47 am

I don't see it as exploitation Lily when they are very happy to renew their contracts. Some of the waiters and cabin stewards knew their next posting , same ship or another vessel and were happy to know they had work for a year + ahead, I dare say none of us had that kind of job security. Further, they have access to full , free medical services on board ( 2 doctors)
They had 3 good meals, had access to own mess/bar, gym and sports court
The long days are split for stewards, 08.00 through 13.00pm, break then 17.00 through 10.00pm but job and finish so often earlier. On Port days they had some deal in place where they could go ashore by trading hours with another crew member.
I got close with our Steward ( Goa, Christian ) and never once heard him complain of his lot. He was young and single doing his third contract and was proud to say he was paying for a better house for his parents to live in before he settled down. His Brother was working on another P&O ship. For part of the journey we had a Catholic Priest aboard who held interdenominational services for passengers and also crew. I got to know him and we chatted about the crew life and he remarked how happy they were despite being young and away from home for so long. He also told of their sadness/misgivings of going home after a long tour, simply because their life was better on the ship than in their own country, sad but true.
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Ernie Jackson. (Bunty) » Sun May 21, 2017 10:29 am

My personal experience about good education and loans to accommodate it is very different to most of these posts although my family's experience is varied.

I can probably relate to all these BB opinions as I have had an extremely varied life with nil initial education or ambition in my youth.

None of my three children had Uni education and all went to work straight from Secondary school whilst their friends were studying stuff that really is seldom useful in later life. . All of my children have been extremely successful and, before you think it, it has all been down to their own application and hard work. At that time of their life we had very little as I didn't go into business until after I was 50 so couldn't help financially.

My eldest granddaughter left Uni after three weeks as she wisely decided she could progress through employment just as well. She now has a senior position in a good company.

Conversely my eldest grandson gained a place at St Andrews (Val joked that if it was good enough for the Queens son then it was good enough for us) and progressed to a Masters Degree. He completed his Uni education at the age of 26, loaded Asda shelves for a year and now has a good position in an International Bank.

When it comes to cruise lines Val and I have now been fortunate to have completed over 80 cruises aboard all sorts of ships. Generally, like land based companies, there are good and there are bad. With a good company one pays for the top product. This, consequently, filters through to the staff and they are on good money although, like all ships staff, many hours of hard work are involved.

Good cruise lines attract high fees but they all take very good care of their staff. For instance, lower deck staff aboard Crystal stay for life. I really appreciate them all, particularly as without exception they are all way ahead of me when I was their age. All crew have their own deck and enjoy everything from disco to food to swimming pool to entertainment. All the stuff that upper deck passengers pay for. They work six months on and six months off on full pay and there are many other benefits.

The staff are all of the same nationalities typical of cruise staff. They at all condidered well off by their counterparts at home.

Hard work creates luck, most of the time. I recollect a conversation with the Captain of Crystal Serenity when I mentioned I was a galley boy at the age of sixteen. He responded well in telling me he was scrubbing the decks when he was sixteen.

To quote a well versed line "The harder you work the luckier you get".

Unfortunately that doesn't always apply as I have experience in that too. My wonderful dad was a docker in the 30's and 40's and worked every hour he was able. Bogies were manual in those days and the docks were cobbled. He died very young and left us all he had.....nothing.

I see Ken has completed another post whilst I was engrossed in this one. Seems most of the cruise stuff has been covered by us both.

Don't feel sorry for cruise staff. Just look at the photos thy carry of their happy families at home who thrive on their hard working mum or dad (often both) who sacrifice their family life to make their families lives better.
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Sun May 21, 2017 11:05 am

Lily, Let me further add that on P&O a gratuity charge of £5.50 per person per day was added to your onboard account, so £11.00 per day per cabin ( this has now gone up to £6ppd) this is divided between the staff should they meet certain "customer satisfaction " targets. It is also possible to opt out of this system and reward directly for good service.
Our Steward looked after 15 cabins, all of which were full World voyage , 114 nights. I agreed with 5 of my neighbours that we would reward him with cash and in our case I gave him USD$200 per sector, there were 5 sectors. Now assuming the others did similar, that's an extra USD$6000 per cruise which goes along way in Goa. I also tipped directly to Room Service, various bar staff/ wine stewards and a Maitre D who we knew from earlier. Much of that was paid in surplus foreign currencies and USD$ and totalled about another $1000.00. All tax free of course, something I never experienced as most of mine was taxed at 40% so no, I don't buy exploited. Ken
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Shelagh » Sun May 21, 2017 11:58 am

Very discerning, Ernie, regarding choice of cruise ship, good that you show interest in the welfare of fellow travellers (crew)..
Never intended getting into this discussion but Ken made a good point, commenting on attitudes of some of those working aboard the cruise ships!!
I'm not doubting in any way, that some of the crew are more than happy with their lot, and considering the fact that they are trying to better themselves, I would say good luck to them.
But like most things in life, things are not always quite as they seem..the item below for instance, not my words but a report from 2014 Cruise Law News...

Slave Ship?
Brazilian Police Board MSC Magnifica after members complain of long hours, abuse, intimidation and sexual harassment.

The B.B.C. reported that Brazilian police boarded a MSC cruise ship and rescue 11 crew members working in "slave - like conditions."

Brazilian officials say that the 11 crew members were forced to work up to 16 hours a day on the MSC Magnifica. Some of the crew members were subjected to sexual harassment!

The Brazilian authorities have been investigating the labour abuses for the past month, following a tip-off from MSC crew members.

"The fact that they had signed a contract, even an international contract, does not mean that the basic human rights should not be respected," Labour Ministry Director Alexandre Lyra said!

A publication in Brazil contains additional details of the working conditions. The Blog Sakamoto talks of exhaustive work on the MSC cruise ship with stories of abuse, bullying and fraudulent time recording.

"We have no doubt that it is slave labour" said Alexandra Lyra, head I'd Brazil Division for the Eradication of Slave Labour.

Another newspaper in Brazil reported that crew members were subjected to racism and homophobic threats and taunts.
MSC issued a statement denying everything!!

The news goes on to mention other reports...one being "Carnival Cruises From Hell" others mentioned, but above gives you the general idea!!

Reports from other agencies: WAR ON WANT..
SWEATSHIPS; A living Hell Below Decks..etc, etc!

Condititions may have improved since these reports..but to accept that everything is perfect below deck on all cruise ships would be wrong!!

(Sorry Ken, just noticed your post)
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Sun May 21, 2017 12:15 pm

That made me laugh, Brazilian working conditions are the worst I ever seen in my business life Shelagh. I travelled to timber mills all over the World and we would benchmark pay & conditions and those in North Brazil were lower than Africa and the Far East, appalling.
I've sailed once on MSC in Europe, the staff seemed reasonably happy despite the fact that the mostly Italian passengers treated them poorly. K
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Shelagh » Sun May 21, 2017 2:38 pm

Ernie..sounds like your family made good choices and had the right attitude towards work, otherwise they may not have been so sucessful in their given careers..that is my point..having the right attitude to each new challenge..be it education, work, sport, whatever..giving it your best shot is all one can do..
Not much consolation, but even if you fail, you will know that it hasn't been for the want if trying :wink:

Re: education..never got the chance of a university education, we left school with a few certificates and a reference..that was it, job searching the very next day, couldn't wait to start work, a chance to be in the money :lol: wasn't until much later that I realised the value of education, signed up on a second chance to learn course, appreciated the experience and never looked back.

Two of my children went on to gain a masters..that was their choice..both had a very good work ethic, supported themselves right the way through..both ending up in professions they love...eldest son was never fussy on idea of further study, so decided to start work right away..steady job, steady wage, happy and contented..so once again, all about choices and attitude!!

Cruise ship subject; still not convinced all is as it seems...but the topic is about attitude, and a servile attitude would be very much required of all those working on cruise ships..nothing wrong with that, so long as they are treated with respect!
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Shelagh » Sun May 21, 2017 3:11 pm

Ken, not just Brazil, not just MSC..lots of reports including one from ITF (International Transport Workers Federation)
One report mentions key players..Carnival, Royal Caribbean, P&O, Princess cruises!
Won't go on, but a little extract from one report;
After interviewing cruise ship workers in the U.K. and Florida, the reports author Celia Mather believes some companies have a lot to answer for.
"Many ships are a floating microcosm of the worst excesses of globalisation, long hours, poor pay and a culture of fear cast a dark shadow over the five star experience of passengers above deck," she says!
Report goes on and on..must be something in it..maybe not anything you have witnessed personally..but some liners must be responsible for the mistreatment reported!!
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby dorothy834 » Sun May 21, 2017 10:04 pm

So getting back to attitudes my daughter's deputy head teacher told me that she would be lucky to get a job in Wool worths no offence to Woolworths girls I was one myself ..however she got a Saturday job in a hair salon and loved it she left school at 15 went to college and knuckled down
She has done well for herself got a degree from L'Oréal to be a Color Tecnition and has taught lots of younger people though over the years now she is freelance teaching at L'Oréal Academy in Manchester as well as doing her Salon work so attitudes always have and will exist we often say we wonder what Mr Deputy Head would say now his attitude was he had written her off..
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Sun May 21, 2017 11:41 pm

Good on her Dorothy.
Mr Clarkson in Warwick Bolam said "we'd end up pushing a handcart from here to the Dingle"
Maybe that was the motivation, to prove them wrong. :D Ken
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Shelagh » Mon May 22, 2017 11:05 am

Good example of attitude Dorothy..your daughter found her niche at an early age and managed to stay focused enough to follow it through :) added bonus for mum, lots of free
hairdo's :wink:
Was also a Woolworth's girl, Church St 1963 (must be a few of us Dorothy :D)
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby lily8 » Tue May 23, 2017 8:09 am

A lovely story Dolls knowing you and your daughter it doesn't surprise me one little bit :D :D

Ken I loath tipping as a means to survive a poor income, but I honestly respect your point of view however we will have to agree to disagree on this subject, a difference in our attitudes.
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby Invicta » Tue May 23, 2017 8:33 am

Respect Lily. I just got an email from one of our Filipino wine stewards, now home in Davao with her 2 children, she's loving her break but very much looking forward to re joining the ship in October for a cruise to Eastern US/Canada followed by a world cruise. Her contract will be October to June 2018.
Her husband works in Saudi (construction) and what they both earn and save will allow them to buy a decent house in 2 years she reckons. Meantime, Mum looks after the kids.
Early sacrifices (didn't we all do it?) pays off I guess.
Cheers Ken
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Re: A changed world or changed attitudes?

Postby lily8 » Tue May 23, 2017 10:13 am

Yes Ken John and I made many sacrifices to ensure a better life for our boys and ourselves in our old age.
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